Transformative Principal

Jethro Jones: Welcome to
Transformative Principal.

I'm your host, Jethro Jones.

You can follow me on all
the socials at Jethro Jones.

I am excited to have on Transformative
Principal today, Dr. Joshua Barnett.

He is the National Institute for
Excellence in teaching CEO, and he

is responsible for overseeing all the
organization's operations, including

service delivery, research and
evaluation, professional learning,

technology development, policy and
communications, financial operations.

Higher education partnerships.

He's also the author of Unleashing
Teacher Leadership, a toolkit for ensuring

effective Instruction in every classroom.

And we do a whole interview with him
on the Authority Podcast with Ross

Romano that you can check out here in
a couple days that will be released.

Before this, he served as President
and Chief Operating Officer for NIET.

And we're excited to have you on the show.

Josh.

Thanks for coming.

I.

Joshua Barnett: Thanks, Jethro.

Thanks for having

Jethro Jones: So what's most
valuable from our conversation today?

Joshua Barnett: What we know is that
teacher leadership is the most effective

strategy for improving classroom
instruction at scale, and our goal with

this book is to help school leaders.

And teacher leaders take on greater
leadership within the profession to create

a system that helps every teacher improve.

And if we can help every teacher
improve, then we know we can reach every

student by building in the capacity
of the educators in our profession.

Jethro Jones: Yeah.

Excellent.

I, the thing for me that was most valuable
was the discussion about localized

solutions and respecting and valuing the
perspective and experience of the teachers

who are there on the front lines, doing
the work every day and recognizing that.

They probably have a pretty good idea
of what's gonna work and what's not,

and taking whatever you may learn
out in the world and bringing it to

how does this work in our building.

So that was my big takeaway.

Looking forward to this conversation.

We'll get to our interview with
Josh here in just a moment.

Well, Josh, why don't you explain to
us what NIET is and what you do there?

Joshua Barnett: Sure.

Thanks Jethro.

The National Institute for Excellence in
Teaching is a 25-year-old organization

that's focused on bringing professional
learning that really grounds our work

in key elements of effective teaching.

We've across the nation supporting more
than 10,000 school leaders 35,000 teacher

leaders, which is what our book is about.

Um, we've supported across those
individuals, over 3000 educators.

Impacting 3.5 million students.

And what that gives us over that 25
year stretch is an opportunity to feel

and know that no matter the context or
the setting of a school environment,

um, we know that all schools are
focused on improving outcomes for

students narrowing achievement gaps.

And we know that if they focus
on equipping and supporting

the teachers in their building.

That, that is how we're going to
move that building, move every

child, move every classroom.

And our organization's mission is to
build educator excellence, to give all

students the opportunity for success,
and therefore we believe that building.

The capacity and the, and the
capital that's in that building

is the most important function.

And the way to build that is through
intentional, sustained high quality

investments in educators as the
most important in-school factor.

And where we see the largest impact of
change happen at the classroom level.

And that's what we've spent 25
years honing and working to support

educators across the nation.

Jethro Jones: Yeah.

And so if I remember correctly,
NIET, one of the things that it's

known for is the Milliken Award.

Is that correct?

Joshua Barnett: The Milken Educator Award
is a separate agency, but yes, they,

they provide the Milken Educator Awards
across the country as a recognition,

a rewards program that's built on
recognizing excellence in the classroom.

And our founder Mr. Lowell Milken
created both the Milken Educator Awards

program and established the National
Institute for Excellence in Teaching.

Jethro Jones: so the reason, excuse me,
the reason why I bring that up is because.

The Milken Award has been
described as like the Oscar for

the classroom or the MVP for the
classroom, kind of an approach.

And, and so the, they're two
separate organizations because you're

focused on something different.

Can you explain what, what the
other organization is focused on and

how that differs from what you do?

Joshua Barnett: Sure.

So the, the Milk and Educator Awards
are, are recognizing excellence in

the classroom, recognizing great
teachers, great educators, um.

Principals, assistant principals,
they are looking for excellence

at that individual level while
they're early career individuals.

Um, they wanna recognize and, and,
and grow those individuals and provide

the network and support around them.

Um, and it's about recognizing
and rewarding excellence in that

individual classroom capacity.

Um, our founder who started
the Milk Educator Awards.

Um, in 1987, after about 10 years of
providing those awards, um, recognized

that I was, or he was providing those
awards from classroom to classroom and

might find Jethro's classroom and say,
wow, Jethro, you're doing fantastic stuff.

Um, I wanna recognize and,
and, and celebrate you.

But I walked next door, he walked next
door to Josh's classroom and he said,

wow, the students here are getting
a fundamental different experience.

So we, we know that education, like
any industry has great individuals,

but what our founder wanted to do was
to step back and say, how do we take

and recognize excellent individuals and
then grow that capacity to raise the

tide of opportunity for all students?

And so the process for doing that
was to create an intervention

that was to build teacher leaders.

And by building teacher leaders
and recognizing that excellence in

any individual classroom, it was to
try to make sure we could provide

that at scale to every classroom
and ultimately every student.

Jethro Jones: And that's, that's
so important because it's easy to.

To focus on one thing, but then
how do you make it grow and

expand to other areas as well.

And so I, I appreciate that
emphasis in what NIET is there

for, to help make that happen.

So you um, you recently wrote a book
called Unleashing Teacher Leadership,

a toolkit for ensuring effective
instruction in every classroom.

And what are the.

What is the connection to teacher
leadership and good teaching?

And let me, let me give a
little context around this.

because somebody is a good teacher
does not mean that they will be a

good principal, and just because
somebody is a good principal does not

mean that person was a good teacher.

If there's a lot of overlap, those
things do happen, but those, those

skill sets are different from teaching
and leading and and especially in

a school setting, they, they can be
very different skill sets needed to be

successful in either one of those arenas.

So we, we talk a lot on this show about
how it's important for teachers to have

leadership opportunities and what is that?

What does that mean in your eyes?

Joshua Barnett: Well, it's
a, it's a great question.

Um, and I think to, to piggyback on
kind of what we were just talking

about, about why our organization was
designed and, and where we started 25

years ago, um, our our founders noted
right that great teachers are really

about more than what they impart.

They are also about the representation
that that great teachers can exist

and that there are opportunities to
grow and achieve in this profession.

And that means that we can transform
an entire workforce of educators.

But that transformation will only happen
if we obviously enlist and support

and grow the current teacher leaders.

We have to develop the next generation of
teacher leaders that, that we can have.

And, and I think the second
part to your question is.

One that's really important,
which is, as you said, what,

what do teacher leaders do?

Um, what makes them different?

And, and I think in, in the book and in
our experience, we really talk about,

um, essentially five key roles and
responsibilities for, for teacher leaders.

And the first piece of that is
we think that obviously teacher

leaders have to engage with, um.

Between instructional leadership team.

Individuals in the, in the school.

And so they are engaging
with that leadership team.

They support the administrator in
developing school goals, tracking

student progress monitoring,
classroom follow up or goal attainment

for instructional improvement.

They certainly are data driven.

They, they're assessing student results.

They're analyzing.

Looking at what other teachers
need and, and when appropriate.

Maybe conducting observations or, or
even informal observations with teachers.

The second thing that we
would say teacher leaders do.

As they certainly provide that
instructional support, um, they identify

research-based strategies that are aligned
to the student goals and the school goals

or department goals of that school system.

Um, they also field test those strategies
and so again, it might be that they

heard about a great strategy at a, at
an event, a conference, a book, or a

proceeding, but they wanna make sure
that they can bring that strategy

back and make sure it's gonna work
in their individual school system.

The third thing we would say
is they certainly collaborate

to improve instruction, right?

Again, it's not about necessarily my
great instruction in my class, but

also how do I facilitate building
the capacity and raising the tide of

instruction across the school system.

The fourth part we would say.

Right.

It's, it's, you need to be able to
coach other adults and assist in

developing the goals and strategies and
improving resources and materials for

the other individuals in your school.

And then the, the fifth component that
we talk about is obviously providing that

instructional feedback which means you
need to have a collaborative mindset.

You need to collect data, you need to
model teaching, but you also need to

be able to provide that instructional.

Focused feedback.

And I think the last part of your
question is really how do they do that?

How do, how do, how do teacher leaders
successfully navigate that process?

And we really talk about the the
three steps or three components to

being a successful teacher leader
based on our experience over the last

25 years, again, working with, with
35,000, um, plus teacher leaders.

The first part of that
inherently is is trust, right?

We have to establish that there's some
trust that's gonna happen so that teacher

leaders are consciously building that
trust with our colleagues, um, that they

are, they are interacting with their
colleagues to make sure that they're not.

Just, um, modeling their own great
behavior, but they're building that trust

across the school system, um, through
explicit conversations, setting, you know,

expectations and talking with individuals
so that they can learn and grow.

Um, but also with district administrators,
school administrators, and others.

And so we wanna be proactive
in building that trust.

It's important, right, to not only walk
the walk and talk the talk, but also

roll up your sleeves and get in there.

The second thing we'd say after, after
building trust is ultimately you have

to have deep instructional knowledge.

Right.

You have to have an ability to demonstrate
that as a teacher leader, you are skilled

at moving both teachers and students,
and I think that's one of the key things

that we talk about is sometimes great.

Necessarily make teacher leaders, um,
teaching your own class, but leader.

The needs of other adults and
try to coach and support them.

And so that's an important consideration
is that you've, you've got to be

able to demonstrate that expertise.

And then the third part we
would say is, is credibility.

Right?

And how do you get credibility?

Obviously you need to have
success with your own students.

You need to be able to be
regarded in the school system as

someone who is highly capable.

Um, but we think the strongest teacher
leaders ultimately gain credibility

by empowering other teachers to
have ownership of their learning.

Right?

And I think that's one of those critical
things that we talk about is important.

and and one of the most important
parts of that is, is not knowing

everything, but also having the.

The credibility to go seek those
strategies, seek out those solutions

and gain those instructional expertise.

And so that's some of the,
that's probably the five

areas of roles we've seen and the
three ways we see them achieve it.

Jethro Jones: Yeah.

So there, there are a couple of follow
up questions I have based on that.

I wanted to make sure that we
understood the context and when

you're talk that you're talking about
teacher leadership in, because I

have other questions that I think get
to a, a deeper issue there as well.

Um, and the first one, we'll,
we'll start with this one and

then we'll come back to the other
one is the ownership of learning.

Um, teachers have for decades complained
about professional development that is

put on by the school or the district
and how it's not meeting their needs.

And then when it's their opportunity
to do professional development on their

own, they don't take those opportunities
seriously or with the kind of.

Um, what's it called?

The kind of responsibility that requires
to be in charge of your own learning?

So, brief example, I, my second year of
teaching, I was fortunate enough to go

to a large conference and all the other
teachers plans were to go to the morning

sessions and then spend the second
half of the day out exploring the city

and, and doing all that kind of stuff.

Personally, I thought.

The district's sending me to this.

I need to be like attentive
and do the things I need to do.

But these teachers that I was
with, who were the teacher leaders

in my school were not interested
in spending their time learning.

They were more interested in, in seeing
this as a district paid for vacation.

Now, that's not unique
to my school, but that.

That is a thing that happens and
people talk about that and, um,

but we don't talk about it a lot.

So how do we help teachers
understand that their learning

really is their responsibility?

Especially in a system where we
take the responsibility of learning

from our students all the time and,
and we don't expect them to be in

charge of their own learning either.

How do, how do we balance and,
and find the right solution there?

Joshua Barnett: Well, I think, I think
as you noted, um, one of the, the key

challenges to this is I, I think unlike.

Traditional, let's say professional
development and your story is

obviously endemic to what we,
we see not only in education.

So I guess I would say two things.

One, that is not a unique
story to education, right?

That is.

That is where every professional
group goes to an event and whether

or not they view it as professional
learning or a combination of

professional learning, expense paid
time together, however they view it.

I think we should be fair to educators
that that's not a uniquely educational

vantage point.

Jethro Jones: I, I agree.

Joshua Barnett: The second part I would
say is amongst those individuals that

would go, um, I think it's what is the
expectation that I'm gonna come back

with, that our industry and our field
needs to think about is, as you noted.

Maybe you were a teacher leader or you
were part of the group that went to that

training, but what was the expectation?

What were the opportunities
for someone to return with?

It was the expectation that by presence
and by going you're, you're going to

get exposed to new ideas and maybe
you bring them back, maybe you share

them with some other people, but what
was the actual system and structure

for that opportunity for learning?

And what I would say is, unlike
traditional professional development, when

we establish teacher leader roles with the
right expectations to ensure that they are

charged with, given the autonomy too and
the infrastructure to support and build

the capacity of other teacher leaders,
well now the expectation for me to go to

that event is that I know I'm there to.

And transfer that learning back
to the instructional capacity

of every one of my teachers.

But not only am I charged with that,
I have the, I have the opportunity,

the structure is built, and
that's what our organization has

spent all of our time working on.

Building that capacity and
those leadership opportunities

through formalized roles is then.

My job is to return back, go to Jethro's
class, go to Josh's class, go to all the

other classrooms, meet with that cluster
or professional learning team, talk with

them about the strategy, and I realize
I'm the conduit from that national or

regional training back to that strategy.

Working in my classroom, my
school, my building, my community.

Well, that changes the way that I am.

Approaching it, and I'm bringing
that back with a collaborative

mindset as the expert.

And I think that's where we've missed it.

Our, our, our approach is let's
send people to, to an idea.

Maybe they get a strategy, maybe they
don't, maybe they had a good time.

But if we build the infrastructure where
the purpose of attending that event

is to return back, and we talk about
this at our events, at our national

conference this year, we had 15.

And, and that's, that was my
speech at the ballroom was

we're in this room to transfer.

That is our job today is to learn
and transfer the learning We

gleaned from our time together to
every building from Alaska to South

Carolina and everywhere in between.

And that's what our job as
an, as a gathering was not

to meet together for the sake

of meeting.

Jethro Jones: Yeah.

those are solid responses and I
think having that as the plan of, if

we're gonna send you to this, then.

We're, we're gonna expect some sort of
integration, some sort of plan, some

sort of work to make it stick with, with
our teachers here in, in our school.

So the other aspect of
that is that the only.

Professional development
or training that counts.

So we say teachers need to be in,
especially teachers, teacher leaders

need to be owners of their own learning.

But we only count or give
credit to specific approved.

Aspects of learning opportunities.

So going to this conference is an approved
learning thing and we don't value and

appreciate the learning that teachers get.

That is not a sanctioned activity.

Does that make sense?

Joshua Barnett: It, it does.

I think that goes back to, um, again,
however, we, we want to set up the right

structure for that to be effective.

And again, rather than, than the, the
old model of, let's call it seat time

or sort of what we, what we often
have talked about in the field, right?

Is simply time in the space or years in
service are not the most, does not make

someone the most effective educator.

Rather, let's start with a
different, different premise.

We know that effective educators, right
are, are ultimately the cornerstone

of student success, and we know those
who can get those best results and

are committed to, um, building trust.

Being instructional experts and having
that credibility we talked about earlier.

Um, they wanna move forward in
their profession and, and they

wanna not necessarily always
move into administration.

So that's why, again, we think
about it as a system-wide approach.

For how can these individuals take
on these types of roles where we need

effective school leaders and system
leaders and we need those individuals

not to have to feel like unicorns, right?

That are transforming and putting
everything on their back, but ultimately

have these other individuals who
are charged with supporting building

the capacity of other educators.

And we know that's why it's one of the
most effective systemwide approaches

to sustainable improvement for
student achievement across the board.

Um, what I would also say, I guess is in
re in response to your question is again,

why kind of, why are we in this situation?

Right?

Um, as you noted, it's not really just
about how we count professional learning.

It's, it's overall, why is our
profession challenged with that

turnover and, and, and challenged with
recruitment and, and struggling to

necessarily get individuals to join this
profession, stay in this profession.

And what we see and hear right all the
time is educators cite perhaps a lack

of support, a challenging environment,
lack of opportunity recognition for,

for a handful of reasons that they
might not stay in the profession.

And we see those as things we can affect.

We talked earlier about recognition
through the Oscars of teaching

the Milken Educator Awards as a
fundamental way to recognize excellence.

Our organization provides what we call
a Founder's Award for a school, which

is again, recognition of a school that's
committed to building teacher excellence.

We have a district educator
effectiveness award that is.

Built on the idea of identifying
a district that is committed to

building educator excellence.

So we are recognizing.

And rewarding those locations that
we see doing those types of things.

And we also see that there's an
opportunity for, again, these teacher

leaders to be that super fuel, right?

In a school system.

So it's about recognizing them, but it's
also about rewarding them for taking

on these types of roles, um, right.

And what they can do.

As we talked earlier, it's about
being that bridge between an

administration and every classroom.

I. Instead of expecting the, the
principals of our schools to do

everything at all times, in all ways for
everyone, can we build an infrastructure

around them that allows the group, the
leadership team to meet the demands of

the profession and provide that high
caliber support for every teacher.

Jethro Jones: Yeah.

Well, I've got, I have about a million
more questions now, so we're not gonna

get to all of them and that's okay.

But one, a couple of things that
you talked about is our, we are

challenged with recruitment and
turnover, and that's a big deal.

And one of the things that I talk
about a lot is that you need to

build a pathway to get people.

Into your classrooms and provide
opportunities from early when they're

not ready, not certified yet to
help them move into that position.

And, um, partnering with with local
colleges to, I, I have a, a connection.

Someone who wanted to be a
teacher and didn't find out until.

The end of her first semester of student
teaching when all she had left was

one more semester of student teaching.

She didn't find out until then that
teaching was not a good idea for her.

And like that I. Irresponsibility of her
college of not giving her opportunities

to be in front of kids and experience what
it's like to be a teacher, is just, to me,

malpractice and totally unforgivable that.

She spent three and a half years
going to college preparing for this,

and then finally the last semester
before she graduates, she's told.

She's not good enough
and not cut out for it.

I think that is just abhorrent.

And so being able to provide pathways
for people to come in is, is a powerful

thing and gives you an opportunity
to see how people do and gives your

students in your school a pathway
to become a teacher at that school

later or in that district later.

I think those things are things that,
that districts have to be talking

about and planning on to make.

To deal with this, um, challenge that
we have with recruitment and turnover.

Any comments on that before we go on?

Joshua Barnett: Yeah, I, I mean, I
think, I think as you noted, we know

the data would tell us we're not getting
enough talented individuals in the

profession, and that should, that should.

I should encourage all of us to
pause and look at what's happening.

And we talked about some of those
reasons, um, briefly earlier on,

on, again, just, just as recent,
you know, an EdWeek report, I think

that was out last year, showed.

Right.

We have, I think over half, 55% I
believe in the study indicated that

they were more interested in leaving the
profession earlier than initially planned.

So we know the pipeline isn't
where we've needed it to be.

And in those traditional education
preparation programs, we know the

individuals in the profession maybe
looking at other alternatives.

And again, we have the evidence, we have
data that would tell us what's, what's

missing in those circumstances, right?

Lack of support, isolation in the
classroom, lack of opportunities to

collaborate, lack of commensurate
compensation, lack of opportunities

for leadership, lack of recognition.

And as I said earlier, our belief is a
lot of those things are are solvable.

There are a lot of.

Issues that we can do to address those.

We can provide recognition for excellence.

We can create formal
opportunities for leadership.

We can provide support for collaboration.

We can create less isolation, and our
belief is that effective teacher leaders.

Are a solution to a great,
many of those problems.

Um, and the, the commensurate
compensation is one.

Nationally we should
continue to talk about.

A lot of states have moved to
increase base teacher salary

over the last few years.

That's been a conversation.

But amongst the other options,
those are solvable problems in

our view, and we have evidence of
ways that this has been solved.

We have national studies opportunities.

What has happened to improve
those to your experience?

I have a first year teacher,
or a first year, you know,

first year teacher daughter.

She's, she's just finished her first year.

Um, another daughter that's in
her, you know, going into her

junior year and a teaching program.

And they need those opportunities to
have exposure to students, as you said.

They can, we can believe and want
to be in the profession, but.

Understanding what it means and what it
feels like to actually walk in and sit

down and be the teacher of record earlier
in your in your pathway is helpful.

Our organization has continued to
partner with community colleges,

education preparation programs,
alternative certification

programs, and even more recently.

Direct district based certification
for states that allow that across the

country where a successful individual
can go on a preparation program through

a direct district based certification
model again, to help meet the needs

to the example that you said, we don't
wanna have someone who spent two or

three years in a program learning
about the profession and then depart.

Um, how did we not recognize, have
conversations expose and gear up, but

more importantly, even if the person
made it that far, what was it that

caused the person to transition out?

Was it an uncertainty over the lack
of support and the continued runway?

Was there an off ramp that could
have let that person join a

education studies program or other?

Adjacent avenue that could have led
to a paraprofessional opportunity that

might've encouraged them to come back.

So there's a lot of conversations we need
to continue to have, but I think our view

is we have the opportunity to transform
this profession, make it, make it as

attractive as we know it should be, and
ultimately regarded in the professional

capacity we know it should be.

That will be a step forward
in allowing more great, um,

high powered individuals to

Jethro Jones: Well, yeah, and I, I
think that's really key because when

you, when you're able to, if, if
somebody goes in thinking I want to

be a teacher, and teacher turns out
to not be the right thing for them,

I. What other options are available?

And we have this silly thing in education
where we think, if you haven't done my

day today, then you, you can't help me.

And it's ridiculous.

Superintendents look at the
state commissioner of education,

they're like, you haven't been a
superintendent, therefore you can

understand what I'm going through.

Principals say you weren't a middle
school principal as a superintendent.

You, my current superintendent
was not a middle school

principal, therefore, he can't.

Get what I'm doing.

A math teacher will say, and
my principal didn't teach math.

They taught language arts so they
can understand that's arrogant

and inappropriate and we need to
just get over that, first of all.

But second of all, there's a lot of
other things tangential to education

that people could find success at.

And this poor woman that I'm talking
about went on to go do things that

were not related to education at all.

And it was a missed
opportunity in so many ways.

Then there are situations where teachers
or principals get pushed out of their

schools or their classrooms and and those
kinds of things happen where they could

still add a lot of value, but that it's
not, there's not another path for them.

And we're too harsh of judges about
somebody not being successful in a

certain circumstance when they could
have been successful somewhere else.

And a, a good example of that is we had a.
I had a science teacher who was, um, she

just, she just did not do great with it.

Really nice woman.

Really good at interacting
with the kids, but just really

struggled to teach science.

And so after a while I was like, Hey,
I. You like doing this art stuff, why

don't you have the kids do these like
science notebooks and teach them how

to observe things scientifically and
record it in these science notebooks?

And she had been an art teacher previously
but had a, a science endorsement.

And so she started doing that and her
whole classroom dynamic changed and it

was amazing and it was so wonderful.

And if she could have had the freedom.

To do that of her own volition
rather than me telling her, you're

just not, you're not fitting in
the, you're not fitting the mold.

You're not getting what we need done here.

If she would've had that.

Of her own volition to know I could do
this and I could be successful with it.

It would've been a lot better for
her, as it was, it turned out to be

a really negative experience because,
um, her doing the things she cared

about and was passionate about was
the last resort before I had to

say, you can't teach her anymore.

And it just wasn't a
fair situation and, and.

It would've been really easy to judge
her and say, you're a bad teacher.

But no, she was just in the wrong
subject, and once we made it more of an

art class, she became a great teacher.

Now, the kids did not get the
standards for science that they.

Would have if she had been
a better science teacher.

But at that point, I mean, I didn't
really care at that point because

they weren't learning anything
anyway, and nobody was happy.

At least now everybody was happy and
was learning something, even if it

wasn't exactly what we had wanted.

And there are, there are different
pathways and ways for people

to be involved, um, that that
could provide them benefit.

Joshua Barnett: Well, I, I
think in that example, you know.

Again, numerous conversations and
in, in district offices and school,

school offices around the country,
that's, that's not uncommon, right?

What you, what you shared is not
an uncommon feeling of, I have an

individual, my al, my alternative
to this individual might be an

emergency cert, a long term sub.

A parapro who doesn't, can't be
the teacher of record, or, or do

I shuffle these kids into other
classrooms and, and overwhelm the

couple of other teachers I have.

So sometimes we, we
don't have great options.

The option is not simply obviously
just getting another great

high-powered science teacher.

Um, so we have to be creative and
thoughtful about what is the right

solution for that, um, across the board.

And we work with districts in every
configuration from rural and remote to

tribal to border, to urban, to everything.

And again, I think that has given us
a sense and a lens of understanding.

And that's what we tried to capture
in this book is how do you draw upon

a solution that can really help.

And identify as as a school leader, as a
system leader, as you were talking about,

what do you do in that circumstance?

and, and and we provide very
practical conversations about

what teacher leaders should do.

But our view is that teacher
leaders are a key solution to.

Part of this problem.

So in that circumstance, in the
example you just gave, you went in

as the, as the school leader and
tried to provide an alternative idea.

Um, and again, you have a lot
of other things on your plate.

You're trying as a school leader
to, to catch lots of things.

And your major concern is, I, I
don't wanna lose this person 'cause

I don't have a good alternative.

But the power of that teacher leader role
working alongside a school leader is to

help them coach, prioritize instructional
leadership, bring in those strategies,

but also have the ability and the time
and the release to follow up and say.

Teacher A I was here last
week, we talked about this.

Um, we've gotten you a better solution
that's now working, but here's a way

where now you've moved in this path that
the profession has remained interesting

to you and you wanna stay into it.

Here's how I think we could infuse
some of those science standards,

maybe into the approach you're
currently using, or a way for us to

think about it in a different way.

And I think that leads us to, again,
a couple of, a couple of keys as a

profession that we should think about,
um, and why teacher leaders are critical.

I I think, I think in that case, what
we see is, is teacher leaders can

really help all of us, um, get it
right rather than trying to be right.

And I think that's one of the key
challenges, right, that school

leaders face all the time is they
are, you are endlessly making

decisions, um, because the, the,
the position can feel un untenable.

But if you have another person around
you again to work with you to be

that bridge and you know they've got
the opportunity to release time and

they're not in it, they're not in that.

Same role.

It lets you do certain parts.

It lets them do certain parts.

Um, so again, it helps us all
get it right rather than, than

ultimately just trying to be right.

I think the second part is, I think
professionally and and I'll, I'll go

out on a limb and say this, but I think
that, I think we need to be reminded

as professionals in equal parts, if not
more so than we need to be instructed.

And what I mean by that, right, is
lots of times we may have learned

or seen or shared or been exposed
to good strategies, good solutions.

But in the profession we don't often have
that hand, that person who's around to

help us with quick corrections, hallway
conversations, a discussion, the routine

solution, um, where I can just pop next
door or someone's coming into my room.

Periodically with regular cadence and
saying, oh, I noticed this happened.

Um, remember here's a good strategy
for when that occurs, but rather if

the building principles can only show
up once to twice of a semester, and

for a drive through observation, you
don't get that reminded and therefore

you feel back to our conversation
about going to a conference.

You feel like you always need
to go get a new solution.

When in reality, most of our world
is built around reminders, right?

Reminders to put our seatbelt on,
to put our, I mean, we're reminded

to do all these types of things,
but in our profession we don't.

We want to learn all the time.

We don't often wanna be reminded that
we need to do good strategies, and

that's where these roles are critical.

And the third thing I would say
is that teacher leaders really

make those localized solutions.

So in the example you just gave.

Right.

If I went to a national conference, I
might learn a strategy, but how do I

take that strategy I learned and apply
it to the circumstance you just gave me?

And that's where that teacher leader
is critical because they know.

The community, the system, the school,
the family, the nature of the children

in every classroom, because they bring
that filter for the localized solution

and they help translate that national
strategy or best curriculum or new idea

from the state department, from the
school system, whoever brought it forward.

And they bring it into the school
because they know how to translate it.

And that's why we think these
profess, these professional positions

are again vital to rebounding
our profession and elevating the

opportunity for every student.

Jethro Jones: Yeah, I, I absolutely
agree with a lot of that, especially

the idea of localized solutions.

Um, I. It's all well and good if there's
data saying this specific thing works.

But if you know that it doesn't work
in your school, there's no point in

in going through all the effort to
make it and try to force it to work

when you know it's not going to work.

And, and you know that because
you're there and you've seen and

you've been there and you've seen
these things work and not work.

And so there are things that
you can shortcut and use.

Your own experience and wisdom
to make those decisions.

And this is one of those keys,
like when we were talking about

ownership of their learning.

Like you don't just learn things only
from going to a national conference or

only from taking a course at a college.

You learn things every, every single day.

And that piece about being
reminded about what works.

And one of my favorite examples
of this was I was, I was a second

year teacher and w was I would ask,
I would give students direction.

I. Ask them a question, and then
I would interrupt myself and say

something that I forgot to say or I'd
say, all right, everybody get to work.

Oh, one more thing I forgot is this.

And I did that all the time.

And my partner teacher who was,
who'd been around for a while, he was

like, Hey, when you do that, you like
sabotage yourself every single time.

And I was like, oh, what do I do instead?

And he said, just stop and think
for a minute and say, do I, have

I given them all the information?

Then say, alright, now
you can get to work.

Like, that's it, that's
all you have to do.

It's not rocket science.

It's very simple.

And and that helped a ton.

And I, I was able to change that
behavior and then every time I noticed

somebody else doing it, I was able to
say, oh, hey, I see what you're doing.

I've done that too.

Here's the advice I got and it works.

So the question that we didn't get to.

And I would love to have you back
on again in the future because I

feel like we could go down so many
different paths in our conversation.

The question we didn't get
to is what the role of the

principal is in this situation.

'cause a lot of the things you
said, the five things are all

traditionally principal roles.

And so, um, for, you know, we'll,
I'll have you back on and we'll

talk more about the role of the
principal specifically and, um.

Because we're, we're kind of
running up on time here, but

this was a great conversation.

The last question that I
ask is about principals.

What is one thing that a
principal can do this week to be

a Transformative leader like you?

Josh?

Joshua Barnett: Well.

Say, having trained and worked with
10,000 system and school leaders, um,

I would, I would say that the, the key
strategy that we would, we would focus

on and encourage is to rely on those
positions that are around us for success.

Um, that, that, that the opportunity
to be a group and to have those

other leaders, um, teacher leaders.

Content leaders, other individuals
that are there, um, to let them and

their expertise be a part of that
conversation to create high expectations,

um, and equitable opportunities for
every classroom and every student.

I think those are key.

Um, being a, being a leader, a
school leader, a system leader,

a state leader as you, as you
shared, it's hard to do any job.

Um, and none of us have been everything.

And if, if any of us could be
everything by the time we got to

it, people would say, well, it's
been so long since you were me,

you don't know this anymore anyway.

Um, so it's not possible for all of us
to do all those things, but I. School

leaders should really, um, take time
to recognize that, that they have

talent and capabilities around them.

Lean on the capacity of those others.

Allow us all to have continuous
learning, collaboration, focus on data.

And again, I would go back
to those three points.

Teacher leaders and
instructional leadership teams.

They help us get it right
rather than trying to be right.

Um, they can help us be reminded rather
than simply seeking new instruction and

new solutions, and ultimately, they can
help us ensure localized solutions are

carried out in every classroom across the

system.

Jethro Jones: So let's,
let's be really actionable.

What's something that a principal can do
to rely on a teacher leader this week?

What would be your advice?

How can they do that?

Like, what action step
can they take to do that?

Joshua Barnett: I think giving
them the time to go through the

building and have a conversation
with every teacher in the building.

So the exact example you gave about
that partner who said, I gave a key

strategy, and then I was able to hopefully
follow up and observe you and say,

oh Jet, I saw you use that strategy.

Great job.

But that took knowing you being
present and have that capability.

So I would say give the teacher leaders
in your building time to have access

to other teachers that will create
the culture of the high expectations.

Jethro Jones: Very good.

Um, this, this has been awesome.

Thank you so much for being part
of this and, um, what's your

preferred way of people reaching
out and connecting with you?

Joshua Barnett: What we'd love for
anyone who'd be interested in, in the

book or our organization, certainly
go to NI e.org, visit our website,

see more about what we've done,
the data and impact of our reach.

Certainly follow our organization at iet.

Teach or follow me personally at Barnett.

Jethro Jones: Excellent.

Thank you very much for being
part of Transformative principle

on the B Podcast Network.

It's been great chatting
with you today, Josh.

Thank you.

Joshua Barnett: Thank you.

Thanks for having me.