Transformative Principal

TP Jocelyn Washburn
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Welcome to Transformative Principal. I am your host, Jethro Jones. You can find me on all the social medias at Jethro Jones.

I am really excited to continue our Rrif partnership this month, talking about literacy. Today I have Jocelyn Washburn PhD. She's an associate director of the Center for Research on Learning at the University of Kansas, and the director of professional Development for their international network of strategic.

The strategic instruction model, professional developers, she has been a special education teacher, instructional coach, district literacy [00:01:00] coordinator, and regional technical assistance coordinator. Her career has been dedicated to the use of evidence-based inclusive practices to support students with and without disabilities, and with an emphasis on adolescent literacy specifically.

Her research focuses on professional learning models, educator collaboration and systems change. And she is doing a whole bunch of cool stuff including a new program called i, a program called iStar to redesign the sin sentence and paragraph writing strategies into an adaptive intervention using artificial intelligence.

Wow, this is gonna be great. So glad to have you.

Thank you, Jethro. It's exciting to be

I am just stoked. You and I have been talking off the podcast for a long time, and I'm excited about all the work that you're doing and glad that we get to dive into it today. What's a big takeaway from our conversation today?

Well, I think really using research [00:02:00] to do our best as educators for. Our children in our schools. And partly that is by focusing on how to learn and making sure that students are able to leave their time with us knowing that they're gonna be able to use strategies that they can learn what they want to, when they want to for situations in life in an ongoing way, for in, for long-term

learning.

For me it really comes back to this idea of it really is about lifelong learning. And the more ways we can teach kids how to do that early on, the more success they're gonna have in life. And, I'm, I'm just excited for this conversation, so we're gonna get to my conversation with Jocelyn here in just a moment (ad here)

Jocelyn, tell me what SIM is and why it's been such a big part of your work.

Okay, well, SIM stands for the Strategic Instruction Model and really it's an approach to [00:03:00] instruction that helps focus on how to learn. So there are a set of instructional tools that teachers can use to help their students really. Learn a wide range of what they want to learn in school or in their future. but it reveals like the secret to learning for students. And so when I first learned about sim, I was a high school special education teacher, and I was really lucky because it was my first year. As a teacher, and this was 20 years ago. And the very first teacher workday was to learn the sim paraphrasing strategy. And so I attended that and I realized that as a special education teacher, what I was learning was going to help me provide instruction that would help students work on their IEP goals, who I had in my class, their individualized education program goals.

And at the same

time.

me what is the, [00:04:00] what is the strategic instruction model? Gimme a little more info about what that is.

Okay. Well, so sim, because it is an approach, there's a set, there are two arms that are part of sim. There are learning strategies and there are content enhancement routines. And so the, the learning strategies are more student focused, where teachers are using explicit instruction and they're teaching students to use certain strategies to perform skills independently. But the other arm of sim are content enhancement routines, and those are more teacher guided learning where students are then, it's still a tight, a lighter form of explicit instruction. There's an instructional sequence called QD review that teachers use to co-construct graphic organizers with students. But these are different than learning strategies because they're used directly with the curriculum. And so there are routines that classroom [00:05:00] teachers then use. And SIM is designed for middle and teachers primarily in in middle and high schools. So it's really built for adolescents, which begins from fourth grade through young adulthood.

All right. So that definitely helps. So it's more it's a focus on explicit type instruction where the teacher's really guiding the students along and. That is something that is definitely beneficial for students with special needs. And it can also help students who don't have special needs as well.

So it's not just for special education teachers, but probably special education teachers are the ones who get the most attention and focus in it. Is that fair to say?

Well, it started out that way. But as you know, over time it became that it's really good instruction for all students. So the way that SIM began was actually the Center for Research on Learning, where that's the home of sim, the center at the University of Kansas. It [00:06:00] started almost 50 years ago as one of five research institutes selected by the United States Department of Education to study what type of instruction works for students with learning disabilities. And so that research has gone on for many years and it started really focusing on the learning strategies then, but then. Working. We always work in partnership with teachers, and so the teachers would say, well, they also need support in accessing the general education curriculum and teachers general education teachers need also strategies that they can use directly with their curriculum.

And so that's then when the content enhancement routines were born to help then with access. But over time as teachers. Use both learning strategies and content enhanced routines. They said this is working for all students. It doesn't, it's more about having the right type of [00:07:00] instruction that is reaching everyone than it is about just for specific students with learning disabilities.

Hmm. Yeah, that's good. So in, in that situation it, it seems that this could be, well, let me ask a little different question. So, one of my personal hangups with education is that all learning is personal. No matter what anybody else says, you don't learn something until you actually learn it, and it doesn't make any sense until you actually get it.

So we can be very explicit and we can have these goals and outcomes and everything, but the reality is you can explicitly teach someone and if they don't want to learn that thing. Then they're not going to learn it no matter what you do. And so my approach to learning is much more individualized and less driven by the standards or [00:08:00] outcomes that we want to receive and more focused on the individual and what they're trying to accomplish.

Now in a big educational system like the United States education, that that doesn't really work across the board, but that is the only way that it works in life for everybody. And when we think more long term, that's what it really comes down to, that you have to be invested in your, in your own learning for that to happen.

So talk with me about my approach versus. The SIM approach and how those relate to each other or don't relate to each other.

Well, I do think it relates with the learning strategies. The very first stage is a pretest and then commit, make commitments to learning. And so teachers. After they individually go over the results of the pretest with students and then say, I know a strategy that will help you perform in this area.

And do you want to learn it? And then make a [00:09:00] commitment and say, we can use research-based strategies, evidence-based strategies, but exactly what you're saying, the effort. To learn, it has to be there in order for that to equal success. So we call that the success formula, and that's a part of all of the learning strategies. Really with sim, the focus is on how to learn so that like you're saying, this is something that's gonna last a lifetime. And if you are able to figure out what works for you as an individual student and know what the different situations you're in, the tasks you have, which strategy is gonna help you perform it, then that's really what. The goal is of school. And my husband, he said that to me when I, back when I was a teacher, he said what we were talking about, what do we get out of school? And he had said, well, really, it's not necessarily about the content acquisition. It's about how to learn so that I can gain my own content acquisition of my choice. Later in life. And so I think that's, [00:10:00] so the strategic part of the strategic instruction model is really helping students have different strategies that help them perform the skills and learn the knowledge that they want to have and going

forward.

so boy, Jocelyn, I can really get behind this idea because, school is, we too often think that school is about the academic outcomes or the things that people the things that we're supposed to learn. And those things really don't matter. And you ask anybody if they remember what they learned in school.

Nobody ever does because. It's not about that. And yet we as educators spend all this time thinking that it is about that. Like when teachers have to do lesson plans, it's like. Sure you can do them, but that's not really the point. The point isn't to cram this specific knowledge into the kids' heads. It is [00:11:00] to prepare them for a life of learning and helping them learn the strategies about how they learn effectively so that they can go continue to do that throughout their whole life.

And that sounds like what the strategic instruction model is. Am I understanding that correctly?

Yeah, you are. Yeah. And it does, I don't know if this would be a time where I could tell you about this pattern that I've noticed. That. Since becoming the director of the International SIM Network, I've interacted with a lot of different teachers who I hadn't interacted with before. And I kept hearing the same experience that I had as a teacher where students would say to their teacher, and this was said to me as well, why hasn't anyone taught me like this

before? And so. It's like this. Aha. And even one teacher said, a student actually stood up in the back of the math class and said, why has hands up in the air, why hasn't anyone taught me like this before? And so [00:12:00] I've been thinking about what is like this? What does that mean, like this? And it's really about showing students this piece of how to learn. What is that? When someone. Is able to make something abstract become more apparent or say, for instance, with the content enhancement routines, because I gave a math example. Showing with those routines in a visual way, the relationships between the most important concepts or main ideas, whatever's happening in the classroom, which is in the curriculum, but really making it concrete for students. And then they have that aha moment. So I think that's where the explicit instruction part does come in. That's really powerful because it's explicit instruction on. Having the strategies for how to learn.

So it's not, if I understand correctly, it's not necessarily explicit instruction about the content. It's explicit instruction about how you're ingesting the [00:13:00] content. Is that right?

That's, yes. And that is an, I guess a misunderstanding that you and I just had about what that really was

referring to.

that, that definitely is a misunderstanding. I'm glad that we got to this point because I can, I can really get behind the idea of saying, this is how you learn a specific thing, rather than my view of explicit instruction, which is explicit instruction is. Very clearly setting a learning goal, teaching specifically to that learning goal in almost a scripted way, very close to a scripted way, doing the I do, we do I do, we do.

Y'all, do you do type of approach and having it be this very structured one way basically to do it. And what you're saying is there's, there's like a, a continuum or law of different ways to do it, but the. The key piece is saying, [00:14:00] here's, here's how you learn this specific thing is, is that a better way to understand that?

Yes. I mean, I'm not, I'm not saying we don't use the, I do, we do,

y'all do that piece and we don't call it that. But we have. We are talking, you and I are talking back and forth between learning strategies and content enhancement routines, and they're different than each other. And so with learning strategies, the way that ends up looking is that the teacher does model how to use a strategy, use a reading strategy or writing strategy with a think aloud, trying to show what does a proficient person look like in their.

The metacognitive piece when they're performing that skill, then the students practice it and they prac. It's like a basketball analogy where you have your practice, your scrimmage, and then your game, and so then it's increasingly more difficult materials. That's what it looks like with learning strategies, but with content enhancement [00:15:00] routines. The Q do review is the form of explicit instruction where the teacher is explicitly queuing what the learning goals are and that stating that I want you to be involved in the lesson. We're gonna build this together. And then the do is to co-construct a graphic organizer around the key concepts. Or main ideas or relationships, higher order thinking and reasoning, whatever it is that's a part of the learning goals. And then reviewing both the content and the learning process. So that's different than I think what you said, but related to the idea of showing how to do something, trying it for yourself, and then having feedback on the, on the learning.

Yeah. Fascinating. Well, I learned something new today, so thank you. I always like, I learned something new. So let's talk about [00:16:00] this in relationship to the, the thing that we're focusing on this month, which is reading and literacy specifically. So how does this relate to. The science of reading and literacy and helping kids learn how to read and find joy in reading.

Also, let's not forget about that.

Yeah. Well, I think that the, some of the ways that it relates is that with. Sam, these instructional tools that teachers are using, they have had studies to validate their use. And so it is a focus on using research to make instructional decisions. And that's something that with the Science of Reading Movement, really the focus is on how can we make sure we're doing the best we can for our students.

And one way we can do that is by following the research and make sure we're staying up to date in those practices. The other piece I think of how it. It relates is that story that I mentioned, how we started [00:17:00] in our research focusing on students with learning disabilities, but then realized this is actually beneficial for all students. I think with the science of reading it, there's a similar trajectory that it started with. What can we make sure we're doing really well for students with dyslexia? And then recognizing that that explicit instruction that is, focused on in a phonics based approach is actually the way that we can prevent a lot of reading challenges by starting earlier and providing that type of instruction for all learners. So I think that's a, a similarity between the strategic instruction model and the science of reading.

Okay. So is there anything about science of reading that is concerning to you? Because there are things about it that are concerning to me, and maybe it's just a misunderstanding on my part, but are there any things that are concerning to you and, and if there are several, we can just go through them.

One at [00:18:00] a. You know, does that make sense?

Yeah, I think, you know, there are things that I'm concerned about and some of that. Is informed by how I've been interacting with some of the procedures that are being put in place across different states, across the nation. I'm, I am definitely in favor of what the mission is and the goal and that we want to use evidence-based practices. But one of my concerns is related to the curriculum review process and how in the review process I. Programs are reviewed against a very long list of research-based components. And what is less common to see is the consideration for whether or not those specific components have been tested and validated through empirical studies.

And so there's a, there's a distinction that I'm. [00:19:00] Observing. And that distinction is, for instance, I see a lot of language that says science aligned instruction, which is another way to say research based, but a difference might be something that is an evidence-based practice or a research validated practice. So some of the programs might be reviewed against, you know, some of the rubrics have 70 items. They may not have all those components, and so someone may look at that. Result of this review process and think less than of a program that has a portion of those components without understanding. And that would just be a misunderstanding if it's missing part of the components because they may have decided intentionally to include a certain set of research-based practices. Create a replicable, replicable set of procedures to test those specific components, and that would be something really great and [00:20:00] powerful for teachers to use. And so I'm just wondering where the, in that review process, looking at the evidence behind the program or the practice falls into place.

Okay, so, so what I'm hearing, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that there are a lot of terms that sound similar that are out there and some things we, some of the components of the science of reading programs have research on them and others don't. And, and so sometimes we think that a, a specific component may be.

Have research connected to it, but it actually doesn't, and we aren't totally sure if that does work. Did I get a general summary there, right? Or am I missing something? Still?

I think that may be true, but that's not

exactly what I was saying. Oh, you, your comment made me think, well, there is probably different [00:21:00] levels of rigor in the different components of what needs to be in place, and they do come across as sort of equal in importance on the long list of pieces. So what I'm saying is that there may be programs that don't include all of the components that are research based. On purpose. Because maybe they've designed a program that is for vocabulary instruction, so that means that they're not going to have those other components. And so some review processes are, suggesting that you just submit your program for the components that you are aiming to address, but others are, are in different states, are capturing it more holistically. And so you actually, in your review results show up as not doing something that you never actually wanted to do as a part of your program because you had a certain purpose in

mind.

Alright. That, that example makes more sense than that. I get that. And so [00:22:00] when. One of my frustrations with the science of reading is that it seems like it's something that everybody does or should know the answer to, and yet it's, it's more complex than that. And, and my frustration with it is that it seems like it's trying to simplify something that is complex and challenging and trying to make it.

So that it's like, duh, this is really obvious. And some people who are very educated at this see it as very simple and they understand it, but others don't totally get it. And, you know, we've had a couple of different people on the show this month talking about the science of reading and, and how, how it came about and all that kind of stuff.

And so I definitely encourage people to go back and, and listen to those if they haven't yet. But there's, there's a lot of information. Out there that, that makes it challenging. [00:23:00] And, and I appreciate your clarity on the idea that if you are looking for, if, if you, a, a specific program may be designed that is research based, but is focusing on different things, then what?

May not be focusing on everything. Right. So like the vocabulary instruction piece vocabulary building piece that you mentioned. They're not gonna include certain things because they're focused on the vocabulary. Alright. Any other concerns that you have with the science of reading?

Well, one of them is so related to with the curriculum review. In some states, if it doesn't make it on the list, then it can no longer be taught. And so what is happening then? A couple pieces that are a part of this puzzle is and I understand that it's adding. I do see the benefits. So the review process is helping to make the work of the schools more [00:24:00] efficient. Because then it's already reviewed and they would have to, they could choose from something that they can have confidence in. But within the logistics of it I've had two times a teacher come to me and say. The review window is opening and if, if we don't get, if you, if you don't get this program submitted, I can no longer teach it. And so, and then the review period of is, is usually two weeks. That's all you have as a, and so you have to hurry up and scramble to get, you know, the materials prepared for the rubric. And the period of time is three months to six months for review. So during that time, the teacher is not allowed to teach. That program while they wait for the result. But the other part of that is that if it is not reviewed favorably, that's in the hands of external people to our efforts. So the review committee, there [00:25:00] would be their strangers and they haven't had the professional learning on how to use such program. And so they're trying to on, in a cold. Fashion review just the materials and make a judgment call that has a big impact for that program. And so in one case and maybe this is temporary, the program wasn't approved and it's having to be resubmitted. And so the school said, we're gonna use a computer program now to teach reading. That was on the approved list. And so now the program that has been used for seven years in that school and had their own practice based evidence in their context that the program was working can no longer be used.

And, and this is my big problem also with the. With even the term, the science of reading, which says, or makes people believe [00:26:00] that this is the way to do it and other things don't work. And that is, that is just not true. And there are things that work, even if they are not approved or even if they don't have, empirical evidence that they work because they worked for the kid that was sitting there experiencing it. And, and this is where, where my hangup is with this, is if, if something is working for someone, then that's great and let's, let's keep doing it. And if it doesn't conform to certain things that they say are, are evidence-based or whatever, then.

Then that's okay because it's working here and we need to accept and respect that as well. So the, the way that I phrase that is, if it works for 95% of the kids, then that's great for the 95%, but for the 5% of kids for whom it's not working, it a hundred percent [00:27:00] isn't working. So they need something different.

And that can be said about any science of reading curriculum that's out there, that for 5% of kids it's not going to work and they need something different and we need to be okay and willing to accept that and do something different for those kids because their education matters just as much as the other 95%.

What would you say to that, Jocelyn?

Well, to me that relates to. Something that I'm excited about with the idea of adapting evidence-based practices based on student

data. So it's not, you know, modifying it. At a whim. But to say if it's, if this, and especially because when we look at evidence-based practices, they were studied in a specific setting, even with a certain either disability type or a certain age of children. And so when we right away when we go to use it, it's already a different [00:28:00] setting. And so it might require adaptations. And so that's a place where then you still using data to inform that and to know the effectiveness. Then it will inform that practice-based evidence.

(ad here) Yeah, that, that's the approach that I believe that we should take for pretty much everything. Our, our goal should be no less than a hundred percent of our kids being successful, and anytime we have less than 100%, we need to adjust what we're doing for whatever group. Whatever number of kids are not getting it.

So if you have 500 kids in your school and 499 of them are successful, you need to change to adapt and meet the needs of that one individual student. And anything less than that, in my mind, I. Is is not acceptable. And there are things that you can do to adjust and adapt to meet the needs of that one individual student.

And this, you know, is [00:29:00] also my problem with big data and making decisions based on, you know, 95% of our students instead of a hundred percent of our students. And so I'm not saying throw it out completely, if it's not reaching a hundred percent, I'm saying what else do you need to do for that last 5%? Or for the last 2% or for the last kid, that that should really be our focus.

And too often these approaches seem to say something like, you know, this is the approved program and this is what you can use and you're not use this other thing, even if that other thing is working. And your own evidence or or as I heard recently, I can't remember where I heard it. I tried to find in my notes, but I can't find it.

Grandma's statistics, which means she's lived a long time, she's seen a lot of stuff. She knows what works and sometimes you just have to trust her and know that her experience has taught her this. Even if it, even if we don't have a research [00:30:00] paper to show that that's exactly. How it, how it could work.

So let's shift gears just a little bit and talk about a close corollary to to reading, which is writing. And you're working on a project called iStar. Talk to us about what that is.

So iStar is going to be we, and we're just beginning this project, but it'll be an adaptive. Intervention. So it's following principles for building an intervention for students and it's gonna focus on writing. IStar is based on sim writing strategies. So when students are learning as a part of iStar, they will learn how to write a variety of complete sentences and a well organized paragraphs, and they're going to practice writing. Purposeful paragraphs. So we're trying to focus both on really. Restoring their sentence writing skills while also having a [00:31:00] meaningful, authentic purpose for their writing. And oftentimes, you know, writing instruction is happening in an English language arts class that has a wide range. Of writing skills, and especially because we're designing it for middle and high school. And so at that point in time, you, and this is true for writing as well, you have many different types of gaps that have formed in the learning process that you're wanting to address. And so with iStar, and this is something I'm really excited about, are vision for it is that. It is still primarily human based instruction, teacher delivered instruction. But the there will be a teacher dashboard, student dashboard, and a family dashboard as well as an administrator dashboard for students to then be able to practice. And so when they're practicing it will, they'll first have an interest inventory. So what they're practicing with will be related to. Their [00:32:00] interests. Also, it's going to be built with artificial intelligence. And so they'll be able to have the sentences and the paragraphs adjusted at the level of difficulty as they're growing, and then have feedback that is tailored. So it'll support the teacher. The teacher will still deliver instruction, and then the technology will be there to support the teacher and their students.

Yeah, and I, I'm really excited about this specifically because one of the things that I always say is if the teacher is the only person who's reading it, then you don't have a real audience and nobody likes to write for no audience at all. And so just having the dashboard of families, teachers, the students and administrators to be able to read.

What you're writing automatically expands the audience from the teacher to more people, which is beneficial. But then if you can [00:33:00] write about things that you are interested in, you'll be much more motivated to write because you actually care about what you're writing about, which is, should not seem like rocket science, but it does seem like rocket science, right.

That should not be a, a crazy idea, and yet in education it is. And the other thing is that it is impossible for a teacher to effectively analyze, critique, and give feedback. To all the students that he or she has in middle and high school. The highest number of students that I had at one time was 217, and I remember that because I had to make copies and I would say 217, I made one for each student and I intentionally planned.

I. If the student loses it, then it's not my responsibility to worry about it. So every student gets a copy, that's how many I make. And 217 for me to read 217 pieces of writing and give actual feedback on it is [00:34:00] impossible and nearly a gargantuan effort for anybody. And, and so I love this idea of having.

AI support it so that the teacher can take the time with the students that she needs to, but that the student gets technical feedback based on what we're, what we're going, what the AI is going to be taught is good writing, and then because it is based on their interests, the the feedback. Will be from what I understand, from what you said will be based on the technical aspects, not necessarily the.

Aspects of which the teacher or the AI may not know much about. For example, the teacher or the AI may not be interested or have a deep knowledge of football, but that may be what the student is really interested in and is writing about, and the feedback will be about the technical aspects of writing and describing this.

[00:35:00] The, but it won't be saying, you got this wrong when you said this is a Wishbone formation, when it was really an eye formation, because that's not its area of expertise. But the kid is gonna know that because they're interested in it and somebody reading it who's also interested in it, will be able to give that specific feedback.

But the technical, a aspect of writing will be taken care of by that. Did I summarize that? All right.

Yes, you did. And I wanna add something because you brought up about all. Authentic audiences. And so when I mentioned that they're writing in an area of interest for pur for purposeful paragraphs, so part of iStar we're building in, and I wanna mention my colleague Susie Myers. She and I conducted a study initially to get started with a writing with purpose routine in a high school setting. And this will be built into iStar and students. In this routine, students are paired with authentic audiences. So even beyond the administrator, the [00:36:00] administrators that can pop in and look at their writing or their families. When they use that routine, that's gonna help them generalize the skill when they're focused on those technical aspects. Write for a meaningful purpose, something that they are passionate about, and then have the teacher will help facilitate to find an authentic audience for reading their work. And then that also will drive improvement and their motivation for writing, knowing that someone will be read, an actual person will be reading their writing.

Well, I, I taught in an InnerCity school in my first year of teaching, and these kids did not wanna write and tell. I said, we're gonna publish this on the internet as a blog, and all of a sudden, I. These hunter kids who were not interested in writing before. Suddenly became very interested in writing and I couldn't get them to stop.

And that to me was such an eye-opening experience that my fellow teachers were like, how do you get your kids to write so much? And these kids [00:37:00] were writing thousands of words per week with. Very little prompting and very little like arguing about it. And my fellow teachers were, were having them do the traditional stuff and it was like pulling teeth.

And they would say, well, how long does it have to be? And then they would do the bare minimum, it has to be 150 words. They would do 150 words or 159 and add in some fluff. And, and that different experience of writing for an authentic audience made. All the difference to, to my students. And so having that authentic audience really is powerful.

So my last question is, what is one thing, one thing, I know you probably have a lot of ideas, but what is one thing that a principal can do this week to be a Transformative leader like you? Jocelyn.

Well, that was really hard to narrow to one thing, and I decided that it should be for principals to learn alongside. Teachers. So if teachers are asked to [00:38:00] attend a professional learning experience, that the principals do that with them, and to really focus on the professional learning and building the human capacity by asking for the voice of teachers, thinking of teachers as leaders, and really having a collaborative approach as a school and that. The principle of being an instructional leader is an important part of, of that happening. In fact, in 2021, I read a research synthesis that the principal's influence on student achievement. It is there, and one of four behaviors of principles is to really focus on creating an environment for. Productive collaboration and professional learning communities. And so really I think that is the recommendation is to really focus on the humans in the building and learn alongside [00:39:00] everyone.

Awesome. Very good advice. If people wanna connect with you, how would you recommend they do that?

Well, it could email me at j washburn at ku edu. That would be one way. I am on LinkedIn and of course. On our different websites that we have, our SIM website and our K-U-C-R-L website to learn more about the strategic instruction model or the research that we're doing in an ongoing way directly with teachers and their students in schools through the Center for Research

on

and I've got links to your LinkedIn and to your sim.ku.edu on on in the show notes at Transformative principle.org. Jocelyn, thank you so much for being part of Transformative principle today. It was great to chat with you.

Thank you, Jethro.

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