Transformative Principal

Eric and Nicki
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Jethro Jones: [00:00:00] Welcome to Transformative Principal. I am so excited today to have on the program Eric Schoeninger and Nikki Slaw. ~Did I say that right? It is Slaw, right? Okay, good.~

~All right. ~ I first had Eric on the podcast ~on,~ in February of 2014. Can you believe that, Eric?

Isn't that crazy?

Eric Sheninger: cannot believe it. 10 years ago.

Jethro Jones: ago you were episode 12, which is just wild to think of. And now this is going to be episode 650 or something like that or six 20. Yeah. Something.

Eric Sheninger: sharing with everyone how old

Jethro Jones: Yeah. And me too. No [00:01:00] kidding. So, Eric and Nikki together wrote a book called personalized meeting the needs of all learners and As I mentioned, I've known Eric for a long time, been following his career and I got to meet Nikki a couple years ago at her school and get a tour. So this is really exciting because both people I greatly respect and I'm very excited to share with you today.

So welcome to the program, Nikki and Eric. Glad to have you.

Eric Sheninger: Oh, excited to be here.

Jethro Jones: So what is the thing people should look forward to from our interview today?

Eric Sheninger: No, what I really appreciate Jethro is you really asked questions to pull out the how and the what, you know, especially when it comes to, you know, that there's not one right way to personalize and you really set up Nikki well to kind of discuss some of those transformative approaches that that can be done from a practical standpoint.

But have led to impressive results.

Jethro Jones: Yeah. How about you, Nikki?

Nicki Slaugh: I really like that you have visited my school and so we could go back and forth and kind [00:02:00] of talk about the evidence and what I feel is working well you could attest to, right? So I feel like it was nice that we could discuss things because we had previously met.

Jethro Jones: Well, and just to note about that that is a definite advantage that I had coming into this conversation, having already been there and seeing what it looks like, that there might be some things that you're listening to. And you may think, oh there's more to that story. Well, there definitely is.

And I would encourage you to pick up their book personalized meeting the needs of all learners. There's a link in the show notes to that. And. And read that. And then if you are close to Utah or ever there arrange to go on a tour of Quest Academy because it is a unique place and a very welcoming environment that Nikki really is doing the things that she says she's doing.

And it's, it's really powerful. One quick question before we It to the actual interview. I've been doing a lot of work with school AI about AI in schools over the last year and a half. Just curious as we talk about all this stuff, we're not going to talk about AI in the interview, [00:03:00] but just real quick, ~what,~ what are your thoughts about AI and how it helps with the personalization?

And again, this isn't, you know, a 15 minute conversation, but just briefly, what, what are you seeing with that?

Eric Sheninger: A. I. S. Tool. And I think we have to identify what is it we're hoping to accomplish as educators. Where can you grow where the gaps in practice? How could you better meet student needs? A. I. Will not teach the lesson. It won't facilitate learning. It won't build relationships. However, if you are reflective and you can identify how you might be able to make a standard more relevant implement more effective closure or upload examples of student work or data sets to get suggestions for interventions.

That's the thing with AI. It should be the last tool in our toolbox that we go to.

Nicki Slaugh: My teachers, some quick examples, just where we personalize and where we require our students to reach proficiency before they can move on. There are two ways that they use it. Number one, they're needing, they're always in need of additional practice problems, [00:04:00] right?

So it's a really quick and easy way to drop in the standards and grab some additional math problems for them. They personalize it. For example, like my one math teacher who loves Chick fil A, the students know Chick fil A is her favorite place, so she can put an AI, the standard, and then say, create real world scenarios based off Chick fil A, so then the students are more engaged at reading those math problems, right?

So that's something simple. My ELA teachers, they can take, say a story or an article on endangered animals that is a specific Lexile level, and they can drop it in there and then ask them to provide that same story on a higher Lexile level or a lower one. So they can differentiate, but all be reading the same topic.

So there's little quick, easy ways that they can personalize and differentiate within the classroom and really make their questions. Come to life and more relevant and applicable to the students.

Jethro Jones: Yeah, those are, those are good examples and good [00:05:00] responses. Agreed that it's a tool that should be a tool in your toolbox, but it is not going to build relationships for you. And if you outsource that to the AI you're outsourcing the most important part of your job, which is not wise for sure. Okay, that was just a teaser.

Good stuff coming. We're going to get to our interview with Eric and Nikki here in just a moment. (ad here)

So I think the best place to start is Nikki, I've been to your school. Eric, I've known you for years. How did you two come together to write this book on personalized learning? Jethro Jones,

Eric Sheninger: we have the same story, but I think we tell it differently, you know, cause we all have our little like, perspective, but we try to do the neutral perspective, which is I was down in Provo doing some work. And Nikki and her teachers happen to be there. So we were in a big conference room and I've been doing a lot of work in Utah up at that point.

And I was just sharing what [00:06:00] my views of personalization and Nikki was in the room with other leaders. She was taking copious notes, which she still does to this day, even at like all events. And then her and her staff got to see me do a presentation. I saw them do a presentation and then we just started talking.

And she would tell me all the great things that her school was doing. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It sounds good. And what did I say, Nikki? He's

Nicki Slaugh: like, you can talk the talk, but let's see if you're going to walk the walk. And you know me, I was like, game on, come on out.

Eric Sheninger: So we had a conversation and, you know, Nikki flat out said, hey, you know, we are doing these things very well.

However, These are areas that I feel we can grow in, and that really is a testament to her ability as a real effective leader, is when I got in there, and this leads up to how we wrote the book, when I first visited, I was blown away, like you were, Jethro, when [00:07:00] you visited here, I really saw things that I've never seen before, and I'm like, wow, you know, I'm seeing high agency practices such as PATH and PACE, but never to this level, So I was their coach in that year and literally during that first year, I said to her, I go, you know, you're doing things that I've never seen at scale.

You're doing it really well. It's happening in every classroom. I want to pair what you're doing here and fill in the blanks with what I'm doing. The work that I'm facilitating across the world. And then I just asked her, like people paid it forward to me. I said, Hey, do you want to write a book? And what did you say, Nikki?

How did you react?

Nicki Slaugh: Well, I, I was obviously so excited. I was like, I'm in game on. Like I was so excited. Pinch me now, right? Like, is this really happening? I feel like I'm just like out in the country, like this little hidden gem. And so I was fortunate enough to start doing tours a couple of years ago [00:08:00] and bring people out to see.

What we do at class, I meet my students and my teachers, but I felt this would be a wonderful opportunity just to help impact a larger community, right?

Eric Sheninger: And then we started, a year ago, we started Table of Contents and the book was published 10 months later. And that's the story.

Jethro Jones: Pretty awesome. So, tell us a little bit about what Quest Academy is, and how And why it's unique because Utah, which is where you're at, has been doing personalized competency based learning for quite some time. When I was a principal there, we were, we were well on our way to doing those things, but you are, I think, taking it to a different level and and you are a charter school also, so you are operating a little bit differently.

So talk a little bit about Quest overall, and then let's get into some specifics after that.

Nicki Slaugh: Okay. Well, I was an elementary teacher for 10 years,~ just in a,~ in the regular public school system. Kindergarten, first, second, and third. Then I was an [00:09:00] instructional coach. And then I was offered this job. It was the principal of a secondary school. So we're grade six through ninth. And the school board of Quest Academy came to me and they asked me to do three things.

They said we want to retain students, retain our teachers, and improve our test scores. So a charter school is kind of like a business, but it's free. So it's a public school. I still take all the same end of level tests as any other surrounding community school, right? So we have the same expectations, we follow the same standards, have all those same guidelines, but the difference is parents can choose for their kids to go here.

They put them in a lottery, and then when we have openings, we run the lottery. So it is free. It's a free public school. It's kind of in between a private school and say, just your regular community school. So basically, people are not bused to my school. ~You do, they do have to have ~They do have to have transportation to get here.

So it's really important to keep the numbers. That's how I kind of reference it as a business. So at the time when they hired me, we had 106 graders, but only 25 ninth graders. So they [00:10:00] said, we've got to do something. We're losing our kids. We're not retaining them. And our test scores were well below the state, and then we couldn't retain teachers.

So I was just this crazy little elementary teacher, cheerleader girl, that they threw in a junior high setting and basically, I did my normal walkthroughs and observations and I realized that, you know, they were doing some traditional things that back when you, any of us were in junior high, just more the teacher centered approach and the kids in the rows and I could tell that those teenagers just weren't engaged because, you know, it's harder to get their attention, right?

And so I just had this crazy idea. What if I did what I did? used to do in my elementary classroom, such as stations and centers and flipped approach, ~moving,~ moving the teacher from the front of the room. I really wanted to do small group one, one on one and actually differentiate and meet the needs of all the kids, no matter where they're at and come up with ways to empower them to want to attend school and to stop being tardy.

Cause if you really start asking teenagers, why are you ~tardy,~ tardy? They [00:11:00] don't really see the purpose of class on their board. They're just like, it's the teacher talking at us, right? So long story short, I just had to be creative and innovative with my approaches. I just took what I had previously done as an elementary teacher and things I had learned from amazing people and books I have read and I just wanted to try to shake things up in a secondary setting.

And another thing is I have a gifted and talented endorsement and I always felt like those children that were on that ~could excel,~ could excel, or a little bit gifted. We were never really meeting their needs because if you teach the average, you produce average, right? And so I was thinking, what can I do to help those kids fly?

So I needed to come up with a system that would not hold those children back. I believe it's our job as leaders to challenge every single child, no matter where they, however they enter our schools. So. I wanted to come up with an approach to where they could do 7th and 8th grade math in one year if they wanted and remove all those boundaries of seat time and everything that was holding them back and Just let them be in the driver's seat of [00:12:00] education.

Eric Sheninger: So I'm going to add some context to that in, you know, in terms of what sets them apart. You know, many schools will put themselves in a box and say, you have to personalize, and all they do is focus on competency based approaches. Have a kid, watch a video, all this. They've done at Quest is they really have differentiated the process of how they personalize, which we define as all students getting what they need, when and where they need it to learn.

And, you know, first and foremost, how do you set up for success? You build in time for teachers to collaborate, for teachers to plan. One thing that I was amazed by was that ~every Friday,~ Every Friday, Nikki built in their calendar time for professional learning that she co facilitates with her teachers.

That is time that people like me are not allowed to come because that time is valued. They built time in for students called Mastery Minutes, where those students actually get that one on one support from their teachers [00:13:00] based on what they need. She also built in time in the beginning of the day for students to not only review, their innovative tracker system.

She created the systems and the supports. If you get rid of grades, points, all that, I know her like an open book now and they did all that. But how do you show growth and learning? She worked with a person and found and built this innovative tracking system. What really, when you think about it is She and her teachers have the evidence.

They've been able to show efficacy. They created proficiency scales for everything. You ask a student, show me a rubric, they can show it to you. You walk in, you can't find where the adults are because they're implementing sound co teaching pathways, which by the way is a means to personalize. They have self paced courses.

They're utilizing choice boards. They're using rotational models all the way up through ninth grade. But what you can do is you can pull the qualitative [00:14:00] examples. Every time I visit, I'm able to curate evidence to validate that there is not just one way to learn. And there's not just one way to personalize.

Nicki Slaugh: Well, I, so what I did is basically, I really wanted to get my teacher's voice. It's really important to hear them out. And I feel like teachers nowadays really want to be treated as professionals. Right. And so I found, I took time to identify every single. member of my staff strengths and would constantly praise them on that, point out to each other, you know, why we're all part of this team.

Every piece, every one of us is a piece in the puzzle, all that. So create this positive culture. We started with culture first, but allowing teachers voice. I threw out my vision and my ideas. And I talked about how to me, 18 out of 25 doesn't represent learning. And I really, obviously I needed to increase test scores.

So I said, the focus really is going to be on every student every day, as well as learning. So what can we do to improve learning? And so I would just ask [00:15:00] questions like, okay, you're correcting papers every night and you're accumulating numbers in those scores. Does that show you if the student's learning?

Our grade point averages were so high. We had everyone on. National Junior Honors or High Honor Roll, right? I scream parties all that when I took over the school. But then our test scores were like 20 percent below the state. And I was like, there's a disconnect. So I just would ask my teachers, you know, what's causing you the burnout?

~What's causing, you know,~ what's the point of giving, 18 out of 25 and rating all these scores and we had some amazing conversations that helped us as a team realize we did need to move to proficiency skills. We did need to create a learning process where students could answer the question, what are you learning?

Why are you learning it? And where are you at in the learning process? We needed a skill where they could self assess themselves and a roadmap for teachers, which provided opportunities for teachers to actually work one on one with students and provide feedback based off the proficiency skill.

And ~they'd have those and that would,~ they were personalized feedback based off every kid. So in order to grow, you have to have feedback sessions, right? [00:16:00] So we just would have meaningful conversations every Friday based off the problems. And again, circling on. learning, which helped us continue to grow year after year and start the personalization process.

The cool thing is some subjects say math or computer science, they went the self pacing route, but other classes like say history and science, they wanted to use choice words, give students an opportunity to choose how to learn. Choose how to practice as well as choose how to prove because that's how they felt they wanted to personalize So I didn't come in and do a cookie cutter approach and make everyone sell paste or everyone use choice words I let my teachers choose how they want to personalize based on their subject

Jethro Jones: Well, and their comfort level and their ability, their strengths, their skills, the things that they can handle. Some teachers cannot handle student self pacing because they feel like it's just chaos. Other teachers thrive in that kind of environment. And what I love about what you said is that you found out what [00:17:00] their skills, abilities and comfort levels were, and then you let them do the thing that made sense.

To them. And that's something that we forget too often as we're doing, trying to roll something out in education that it, it's funny how we say we want personalization for our students, but we don't give personalization to the teachers, and that has to be the case. Like when I was principal in Fairbanks, Alaska, one of the things that I said was, I don't care what you do.

for personalizing learning, but you have to do one thing this quarter to personalize learning. And that seemed like such a low bar. And all it was, was a way to say, you just try something that's in your comfort level. And the stodgy old history teacher who didn't want to change anything she said, okay, I'm going to let my students choose to do a PowerPoint or to do a just a presentation without a PowerPoint assisting them.

That's my choice. And I was like, great, that's wonderful. But that's all she was comfortable with doing. Whereas other [00:18:00] teachers were collaborating in across three different content areas to make something cool for their kids that every student was doing their own project. That's fine. Either one of those things work.

I want to go back to two things. Number one is the tracker data. And number two is what Eric said about being able to curate evidence. And these two things I think are really important. So let's talk first about the tracker data, what that looked like, what that system looks like and how you implement that so that teachers are able to do their own thing, but let's just talk a little bit about that.

Nikki, you start there.

Nicki Slaugh: Okay, so when you remove points, so I removed points, extra credit, percentages, that's what forced us to make the decision to create the learning process, which is emerging, developing, mastering, and extending. There's not just one way you can create your own learning process. Those are the words that we had chosen.

So that's kind of like our roadmap. We want students to be able to identify if they're in the emerging stage, developing, mastering, or extending per standard, right? So first, I [00:19:00] had my teachers choose their power standards and we vertically aligned and horizontally aligned them. Then we sat down and created proficiency skills.

Once we took the state standard, we switched it to an I can statement and we really focused in on that verb. Too many times it'll say design a model and do this, but we're providing them with a multiple choice cookie cutter test, right? So we really started looking at our assessments, our formative and our summative and everything that we were doing.

And I'm like, Does this test show, prove understanding of this standard? Then obviously their minds are, you know, their wills are shifting and they're going and they're starting to collaborate and work together and they're realizing that it didn't. So what we did is, we started with that mastery standard, then we, went through webs, devs of knowledge, blooms, taxonomy, marzano, looked at all the different verbs.

They sat down, created. I can statements for emerging, developing, as well as extending. Once we created that, then we created what we call prove its, which are summative assessments that are aligned directly to that proficiency scale. Then, after [00:20:00] that, I allow them to let me know if there's any research based curriculum or anything that they need me to purchase.

Digital tools, what do they need? And, so they did their own research on what they needed, and the goal would be every student would have to master that standard, right? So then they started being creative in, you know, Choosing their self pacing methods using flipped model or using station notation or using choice words, right?

And that's kind of how we started laying it out But the key thing was everyone had to have a proficiency scale everyone had to have a prove it that was aligned to that Proficiency scale and the prove it needed to be very rigorous. It needed to have DOK one, two, three, four questions in it So it'd be very easy for the teacher to assess if there's no 15 out of 20 How are you going to know?

If they passed it, right? So it's based off the questions that they put in their assessment or their project. ~Do you have any questions on that before I keep going? Because that was~

Jethro Jones: Yeah, so I, I understand all of it. One thing you just kind of glossed over, like it was no big deal at all, was that you removed [00:21:00] Extra credit and percentages. And as someone who's done that, I know how difficult that can be to get people to shift their, their minds around that. Talk about that process of taking those out.

And then Eric, I know you've got experience here. So feel free to jump in also when she's done.

Nicki Slaugh: My personal experience is I felt I didn't want to cause any confusion with any of my stakeholders. With my school board, with my teachers, with my students, or my families. So I jumped in 100%. I firmly believe if you're going to make a shift like that, you can't just do it in one or two classrooms or grades.

I believe you need to do it completely school wide. It's not fair to a student to go to math and they're still using the point system, but then go to ELA and they're using rubrics. Do you see how the confusion? So we dove in a hundred percent. I got my school board approval. I explained how the proficiency skills would actually.

showcase more of obviously prove their learning better than just the 25, right? we came up with a Numerous scenarios and everyone [00:22:00] spoke from their heart to help the school board and our community agree with this But it really wasn't that hard. So many people think it's so hard when you ask them How did you earn that a and they say what was 300 points in chemistry back in the day if I didn't pass my test I never went to the teacher and said, will you please re teach it?

People would go to the teacher and say, hey, I need some extra credit because I need 300 points because I need that A. So I explained to them, did you play the game of school? I did. Every single day I had a 4. 0. Right? And so, just asking questions and getting them to think, and then saying that we want to really focus on learning, deeper learning, not the short term memory, long term memory, we want them to retain it.

and we set the expectation high. If the students do not reach mastery the first time, they cannot move on. So there's a lot of questions on mastery, like do they have multiple times to take the test, is it easier? Not if you have high expectations like that. I don't, I don't promote it with my staff or my teacher, my students.

You have multiple chances. We love you. La la la. You know what I mean? That it's [00:23:00] easy so they guess. We really say at Quest, we want you to be and understand the standards and actually learn it. If you do not, We have mastery minutes as well as after school tutoring every single day for you, where you can meet, get a reteach, and have more practice problems so that you can learn the concept.

So the goal just is learning, learning, learning.

Eric Sheninger: So when, when they got rid of the grades, the points and all that, and went to proficiency scales and rubrics, the tracker is the tool where you're taking that information of where the kids are on their learning trajectory and they can visualize it. They can see it.

The students can see it. So when you remove points grades, numbers, homework. You have to have something in place that illustrates to students that they're learning. And, you know, the one thing that, that we always preach is when we think about personalization, you know, the right way is your way. There is no best way.

We challenge the notion of best practice. If there was a best practice, we all be doing with a high degree of fidelity and getting amazing results. There are [00:24:00] effective best practices. practices. And I'm going to let you, Jethro, kind of rephrase your question. You're going to ask about the importance of evidence, because when we think about effective practices, well, what is effective, you know, versus ineffective?

So I

Nicki Slaugh: want to share one thing. I just have to say one more thing. So the tracking system, basically, it helps the students identify every single standard where they're at. Emerging, Developing, Mastering, Extending. And then during that student prep period, they get to decide if they're at Developing or Emerging.

They have to take ownership and decide which teacher they go to to receive the re teach and so forth. And then they have the attempt to reach Mastery. But, I do do grades. Because I do have high school credits. So a lot of people think if I give up points, percentages, or whatever, I don't do any grades.

Throughout the quarter, parents, I Teachers, students all use the tracker, but once a quarter, the week before the quarter, we call them performance reviews, and every student meets with every single teacher one on one. This is where I [00:25:00] really promote self advocacy. I want them to provide the evidence to the teacher why their grade should be what it is.

Now we do, because we do have to report to the state, an A, B, C, or D. Right? So they have conversations based off the evidence in their portfolio, based off the evidence on their tracker, and they have such an amazing conversation with their teachers to help determine their grade. But their grade represents only academics, right?

So we also have them choose their citizenship grade, Honorable, Satisfactory, Needs Improvement, that we all have. So we have them on their portfolio. Also create, choose their citizenship grade, and I have a part in their tracker based off that, because we really focus on life skills, personal responsibilities, respect, integrity, discipline, and engagement.

And so we want to create, you know, lifelong learners and amazing humans for our, world, not just academic, like, we don't want to focus on academic mastery only, we want to do both. So they're actually choosing citizenship and academic grade.

Jethro Jones: Yeah, I, I love that. And that's something that I found really [00:26:00] amazing when I was there, was that they They got to choose what their grade was. And as, as I talked to you back then, you basically said, and correct me if, if this is not how I remember it, is that pretty much every student chooses what is appropriate for them.

And if they've been slacking or not putting forth the effort, they say, I don't deserve an A because even if I know the material I haven't been In the citizenship realm, I haven't been doing what I should be doing as a good citizen of the school community, and I think that that's a really powerful statement that they, because they now have ownership, they actually care that it's accurate and really reflects, whereas grades are all made up anyway.

So, all they want is the A.

Nicki Slaugh: Because really, what is an A based on my junior high versus the two junior highs down the road? What is an A? What does an A really mean? Right? Everyone has a different percentage or point value, what the A is. So that's why I felt comfortable doing this. And obviously [00:27:00] John Hattie really promotes 1. 44 effect size on self assessing, self grading and all of that.

And I want to create little public speakers to where they can go out in the world and speak and fend for themselves. But that's the main reason why I separated citizenship from academic. Because there's too many times that their grade doesn't represent the learning, it represents if they turn in their missing assignments and their behaviors.

Jethro Jones: So, the, the thing that you were saying, Eric, about the, the collecting evidence, going back to that piece when you talk about best practices if it is 95 percent effective for students, the ones for whom it is 5 percent ineffective, it's 100 percent not effective. And so we have to recognize that we need to honor and respect when students are learning when they're not learning and not punish them because they're not learning in the way we say they should learn.

And this was brought into stark contrast for me when I started working with students with disabilities who could [00:28:00] be incredibly smart and really understand things, but could not demonstrate it in a way that was acceptable. And so kids who, who were nonverbal, but definitely knew and could understand different things, kids who could not take a test to save their lives and do well on the test, but when given the opportunity could explain, you know, frontwards and backwards, exactly what they needed to know, but the system did not allow them to express themselves that way.

And, and we had to work a lot to help. have evidence count towards their learning that wasn't just the traditional test scores because that was all the teachers knew how to do at the time. And well, if it's not, you know, out of 25 points, I don't know how to tell whether or not this kid got it. So what else would you say about the collecting evidence, Eric?

Eric Sheninger: Well, I think you, you hit on a bunch of things. I, I would challenge the notion that what's being done now works for 95 percent of the kids. I think [00:29:00] it works for a third of the students. You know, the students that tell me, what do I need to do to get an A? What do I need to do to pass? What's the minimum amount of work I can do?

And as I was listening to you, the one thing that we emphasize in our book is how we shift from impersonal approaches, what we teach, what's on the test, what's in a grade, what's in the curriculum. That's impersonal to a more personalized approach, which focuses on the who. And as I listened to you, Jethro, you really emphasize that students have different preferences.

Students. Need to learn at a pace that works for them. They need to follow their path. They need to have choice in how to demonstrate understanding. They need to be able to use their voice and moving from the who to the why. If we really want to see if learning is personal, students should be able to tell you, why am I learning this?

How will I use it outside of school? And what tells me if I am successful? And everywhere I go, people tell me, yeah, we're [00:30:00] personalizing. We're personalizing. And I listen and I'm like, all right, well, this is sounds great. I would love for you to show me because here's what educators say. And this is really important for leaders.

Educators want to know, we know the why, how can we do it effectively and what What does it look like? So when we think about clarity, going back to the work of John Hattie, teachers and leaders need to have clarity in whatever they're focused on, you know? So if we're talking about personalization, clarity in terms of what it is not, it's not all kids on an adaptive learning tool where there's no talking, no discourse, no relationship.

It's not all students doing the same thing at the same, same time, the same way. The one thing that Nikki and I emphasize in our book is that there is not. One right way to learn. Same thing with personalization. So you could use voice, mini whiteboards digital tools, dry erase surfaces, aligned to scaffolded, higher [00:31:00] thinking questions.

Take a picture of it. That's what we do in our presentations. We show people, here's what it could look like pre K all the way through grade 12. Choice. Choice can be just choosing how to demonstrate understanding. Choice could be choosing, like you said, to do. A more extensive project over a PowerPoint, but choice could be a choice board with scaffolded questions.

It can be a playlist. It can be a must do may do when we think about meeting diverse needs, rotational models, rotational models, where data is being used to group, regroup, target instruction to differentiate needs. Process. And then, you know, when students are involved in choice, when they're in a rotation, that teacher is using data to either pull small group or one on one support.

You know, you could work on path and pace through flipped lessons, through self paced courses. But what we think about that data is evidence piece. It's easy to talk about it and say, yeah, the kids are [00:32:00] going through self paced. But as you listen to Nikki, you can see them in a self paced math class, but you could see them reviewing the rubric.

You can see the teacher providing standards aligned feedback or target instruction because they have the templates. You also mentioned a kind of connection to arbitrary scoring guides. One point for this, two points for this, three points. That is evidence. of a ineffective practice. The more we can have open and honest conversations about where our practice resides, the more our ability to improve and grow our practice becomes a reality.

Nicki Slaugh: Formative assessments are key. When you remove points, And what we do is we, do you remember, we do practice, practice, practice, prove, so I don't call assignments, assignments, or ~tests,~ tests. All of our assignments are projects, they're either independent, with a buddy, group work, those are called practices.

We do not score any of those. The teacher is going around observing, meeting with the [00:33:00] groups, they're working together. There's no need to score a practice, but at the end of every class period, they do need to give an exit ticket because I truly, truly need them to look at the formative assessment to see what the practicing they're doing within that class period.

What did they learn? Then that teacher takes that information from the exit ticket, and that's how they determine what they're doing the next day and who they need to pull. And by using flipped classroom and choice boards and playlists and stations, they're not in front of the classroom the entire class period.

So it gives them time to work with the kids, and if you work with the kids, you form relationships. And if you form relationships, you create an environment where they feel safe to ask questions, they feel safe to take risks and fail themselves, and that's where learning happens. (ad here)

Jethro Jones: Yeah, for sure. The other thing is that when teachers are not constantly grading and you know, entering things in the log book and, and stuff like that. They're actually spending their time on that curation of evidence and, ~and showing and paying attention to the things. I don't know if you heard that, but somebody just dropped something.~

~We'll have to edit that out. ~Paying attention to the [00:34:00] things that that actually matter. And teachers get to spend more time doing the things that they actually want to do.

eric---nicki_1_08-07-2024_105124: Jethro,

Eric Sheninger: you just said the main thing that we stress in our book and our work with educators around the world. Personalization is about maximizing the time that we have with our students. That is the one thing and the only thing that teachers can control. They can control how they leverage the time. To meet the needs of their students, administrators from a time standpoint, they have to think about do they make the time to provide timely, practical, specific feedback.

So I'm so glad you brought that up. We can go over strategies. We can talk about effective practices, but in a nutshell, if we really want to move the needle. With learning, if we want to grow as educators, not more work, better work. And that means maximizing the time that we have with students.

Nicki Slaugh: And I promise [00:35:00] you, they will fall in love with their job again, because it's meaningful and purposeful.

And they love that. I'm trusting them to be creative and innovative and design those choice boards and different things. And teachers are magical. We won't, we all went in there for one reason. We all had to create all those lesson plans throughout our. You know, our undergraduate, right? We've created many lesson plans, all different types.

And so when you actually let them design and create, then they, they really do have ownership themselves and what they're doing and you can feel their passion when they're teaching and they, they just feel respected overall. So it's just a wonderful thing. And I'm sure I let you meet all my teachers.

Usually when I do tours, you get to eat lunch with them. So you could probably speak. If I provide a tour, I can obviously talk about this cause it's. Right in my soul and I love everything about it, right? But it's really powerful when you can actually talk to my students or my teachers. And so you could probably attest to they do not feel overworked or burnout.

[00:36:00] They feel less stress.

Jethro Jones: for sure. That was, that was something that I definitely noticed was they, they, they seemed like they were not stressed about their work. They seemed like they were enjoying coming to school every day. They seemed like they were loving the work that they do. And I think that this is, So valuable, especially when there are teacher shortages and, you know, we talk about how to attract and retain great teachers, need to provide them an opportunity to do the things that they love to do, that they are really good at.

And and one of those things is doing cool things with kids and helping kids learn without all the, the busy work that goes into, to being a teacher and all the stuff that you have to do. on top in a traditional system. It just is not worth it. All right. My last question is what is one thing that a principal can do this week to be a transformative leader like both of you?

You can each answer that.

Eric Sheninger: Well, I don't think [00:37:00] we'll say that we're transformative. We, we try to do what's best for kids and if others think that's transformative, so be it. But I really think as leaders, nobody likes to be told what to do. Nobody likes to have orders barked at them. Leadership isn't telling people what to do, it's taking them where they need to be.

How do you do that? You show people the value. I am not a fan of the term buy in. If we have to continually get people to buy into something, that goes against everything Dan Pink talks about in Drive. Autonomy, Mastery and Purpose. We want people to embrace change because they see that is actually going to save them time and do better work.

So we talk in the book about, you know, as leaders creating an environment where it's okay to fail. fostering collaborative environments, feedback, feedback, feedback, and providing professional learning that is relevant [00:38:00] and meaningful. So, you know, when it's, when it's all said and done, don't ask others to do what you're not willing to do yourself.

That's one thing that Nikki and I have both learned from our experience. And, you know, the last thing is as leaders is. It's not about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's not about revolutionizing and changing everything you do. It's the small shifts to practice done consistently that count.

And if leaders can convey that point to their teachers, especially in regards to personalization, they will be in a better position to transform teaching, learning, and their own leadership.

Jethro Jones: Yeah, Nicky.

Nicki Slaugh: He covered a lot. I really wanted to say those four things.

Eric Sheninger: You can share something else.

Jethro Jones: it down to just one, Nicky. What do you got? One thing.

Nicki Slaugh: I just, I really believe they, I'm just a big advocate on creating a team and having I think teachers, students and administration just be inspire and challenge and [00:39:00] support each other every day.

And I think it's really important to celebrate wins. And so, like I said, I think the leaders need to find something value in everyone of every member of their staff. And I think the teachers need to take time to find something they value in every single student. And when you're constantly talking about the strengths and then celebrate the wins, it just creates this environment that.

Stays positive, right? And we just get rid of any energy vampire sort of, I don't know, personality. So just creating a happy environment where everyone loves to come to work.

Jethro Jones: And getting rid of the energy vampires is so important. Well, Eric and Nicky, thank you so much. How would you like people to connect with you if they want to learn more? Of course, there's a link to personalize me and the needs of all learners in the show notes at transformativeprincipal.

org. What's the best way to get in touch with you both?

Eric Sheninger: Well, the one thing is that we try to practice what we preach and model. So, we have a vibrant Pinterest board aligned to personalize that shows [00:40:00] evidence, all the things that we're writing about, we're seeing. So basically we're on every social media tool, but. Check out our Pinterest board on personalize for me, eric shenninger.

com is a one stop shop, but I'm on every single social media site. I'm even on Tik TOK, but I just don't get Tik TOK. So you can avoid Tik TOK.

Nicki Slaugh: I'm on all of them as well, or you can go to Nikki saw. com. So really easy, but we're, we're here to help. We love working with schools and we'd love answering questions.

So.

Jethro Jones: Yeah, very good. And links to their social media are in the show notes at transformativeprincipal. org. Thank you both so much for being here. It's great to have you.

Eric Sheninger: Thanks, Jethro.

Jethro Jones: ~Okay. Excellent work. All right. So now we're going to do the introduction. I just do a brief intro, and then I like to ask you, what was the thing that was most valuable to you from our conversation? Kind of like a teaser to get people to want to listen to the rest of the show. Sound good.~

eric---nicki_1_08-07-2024_105124: ~Yep. What was it? Give me an example. What do you mean? What was the most valuable? Just ~

Eric Sheninger: ~let me go first. I'll model for you. Okay. I'm going to say something about you. You're going to say something about me. Okay.~

Jethro Jones: ~Very good. You, you know how to do it. All right. ~