Transformative Principal

[00:00:00] Welcome to Transformative Principal, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading. I am your host, Jethro Jones. You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones.

Oh, all right. Here we go. Welcome to Transformative Principal. I'm your host, Jethro Jones. You can find me on all the socials at Jethro Jones. Transformative. Principal is a proud member of the B Podcast Network where we've got tons of shows all about. Great things happening in education. Uh, we just added a new one called Surviving and Thriving with Dr.

Nick Davies. So definitely check that out today. [00:01:00] However, I'm excited to have someone on the show that, uh, works for a company I. Uh, that is called Kahoot. You may have heard of them. My daughter is the Kahoot queen, and she, every time she does a Kahoot, she wins or is in the, the top five at least. Um, because somehow she has figured out how to win no matter what the questions are.

She always dominates and she loves doing it. And we often do little cahoots as a family. So Mera. How'd I do?

Yeah, perfect. It's, it's, yeah, that's a lie. It's perfect.

Perfect. That's okay though. Uh, so, uh, Meda is here. She is going to talk to us about a whole bunch of things. So Mera, why don't you start by introducing yourself and we'll, we'll go from there.

Okay. Thank you. Um, thanks for having me here. Uh, my name is Meira. I, I'm from Finland. It's a really [00:02:00] hard language. It's a really hard name to pronounce. I live in France currently, so it's like I've gotten used to all variations of the name. Uh, I'm a learn, I'm a learning designer at Kahoot. Um, if you don't know Kahoot, we are a game-based learning company.

We make learning awesome for millions of students. I think we hit. This year, last year, 10 billion non-unique players on Wow. Which is, is a, a huge, huge number. But before this job, I used to be a teacher in Finland. I was a classroom teacher for seven years. I was on the field. I loved it. I've done high school as well.

And then I taught university and some of it during covid. So I got to experience this, uh, covid teaching on Zoom, which was, um. Quite an experience, let's say. Yeah, yeah. But I, yeah, I'm, I'm super passionate about teaching. I loved being a teacher. I still consider myself a teacher. [00:03:00] Uh, but I, I mean, it's not a, it's not the easiest profession, right?

It is. It is quite tough. It's quite hectic. So at UD, we want to make that work. A little bit easier. We want to give a tool out there for kids. I mean, who can call themselves skied queens and be proud of it. Be proud and excited about learning. Get their brains activated, get them interacting with each other, each other, making connections, having fun learning, and kind of reimagining what learning is.

It's not, it's not just passively listening, daydreaming you are hours away. It's something that. That is like filled with curiosity. It's filled with engagement. It's filled with so many fun thingss, and that's the something that we at ki, hud wanna, uh, bring to all the classrooms in the world.

Yeah, that's great.

Um, so I, uh, since you're from Finland and we're a [00:04:00] teacher in Finland, uh, I have also had another Finnish teacher on Piero. I probably got her name wrong too. Do you, uh, do you know her? It's a small world.

It, it is a small world, and usually Finnish people know each other. Hannan, can you say the first name again?

Pirro, P-I-R-J-O.

Oh, Peter. Um, Peter doesn't ring a bell. Okay. But I, I, well, I will have to see. Maybe we're related after, Hey, hey, every time I meet a person it's like your, your cousin or something.

Yeah. That's wonderful. The, the thing that it's worth it to ask, because there are always connections and, um, and I just had one yesterday where, uh, there, there were these, you know, three degrees of separation.

Around me and three friends and we, we were all connected. We just didn't know it. And I just find that really fascinating. So, um, so listeners, you can go learn more about, uh, education in Finland. Uh, that was a really hot topic, uh, here in the United [00:05:00] States a few years ago. 'cause everybody thinks fins are amazing at education and according to, uh, you were and are.

And so, um, so let's talk about what it means to be a learning designer. At Kahoot and what it is that you are trying to do, uh, with, with this program that, uh, a lot of people love and it is quite fun and engaging. And I have to tell you real quick, that last night we were playing Uno. Are you familiar with that game?

Yeah,

yeah, yeah, yeah. The card game. Yeah. Yep.

Uh, my two daughters and I were playing and, uh, while we were playing, my oldest daughter, who's the Kahoot queen, was, uh, humming along. Uh, or humming the song that Kahoot plays when you're, when you're playing. Yeah. Yeah. It's,

yeah.

Yeah, it is. Uh, it's, it's quite, uh, quite catchy.

So good work there. So, uh, tell us about what you do as a learning designer.

Um, so I am a learning designer in the product team. So I work with a lot of [00:06:00] teams in the product development sector. And our team specific interest is how do we actually make the learning experience more engaging, more inclusive, more accessible, uh, easier to use?

Both for the, for the teacher and for the students themselves. It's students in the classroom inside the live cla, uh, uh, live class games, as well as students when they come to the platform, playing on their own, looking for a, uh, a study partner, um, to refresh or review or, or learn or practice different topics without, um, a classroom per se.

So we're trying to do that. And what that concretely means is I meet a lot of teachers, I talk to a lot of teachers. I listen to their pain points, I talk to a lot of students. Um, I go into a lot of classrooms. I, whenever we wanna release something like an a new thing, uh, I go and test it, usually myself. I go see [00:07:00] teachers use it.

Um, I'm here in France, right? I've, I've lived here two years. I don't speak French very well. That's a, that's a, that's a big shame. I try my best, but learning is, learning is tough. And one of the things I do here, I go to these French classrooms and the kids don't speak English, and it's, it's a great measure of how a, how a good, how easy a product is to use when a person who doesn't know French can do a successful session with kids who don't speak English.

Yes. Can we pause there for a second? Yeah. Because this is incredibly powerful and something that I've harped on for years, you should not need hours of professional development to learn how to use a tool, and if you cannot jump in and just start using it, then that is an error on the design of the tool.

And from the very beginning. So you, you've got to be able [00:08:00] to have tools, and this is me talking to ed tech companies and software developers. If it's not easy enough for someone to jump in and start using, it's too complicated. Yeah. And, and it can be deeper than that, and you can like, learn more things, but you gotta be able to just start.

So, I'm, I'm so glad to hear you say that, and especially in the context of it's powerful for a non-French speaker to go into a French classroom and be able to have that happen. So keep going about that.

Basically, it's so important that it's easy to, like, it's easy to host, it's easy to start, it's easy for students to succeed.

The second you have like five students raise their hands during a game and be like, I don't get it. I don't understand it. I'm stuck. Teacher, I need your, I need your help here. 'cause teacher cannot come to, you know, 10 students at the same time and assist them. Mm-Hmm. On a technology, like a, a technical issue, like [00:09:00] the technology has to work in a classroom setting.

I hated that as a teacher when they're trying to teach a lesson and something fails, right? Something on a device fails, and then you're not even, you're not on the like, teaching pedagogical stuff. You're just troubleshooting something. And we wanna limit that. And it's a very hard, like a, a big thing for the team to, to get that feedback.

Like, um, it's a joke, but I have this sweaty meter for the experience. Like if I get sweaty. In front of 30 kids and I feel like I should be in 10 places at the same time, then we're not doing something correctly. Yeah. We have to go back and we have to iterate. It has to be, it has to be enjoyable for the teacher as well as the kids.

It, it cannot be that you have to study something 20 minutes before a lesson so you succeed for the teacher. We don't have that time. We teach 25 lessons as a classroom teacher, 25 lessons each week. I never can repeat a [00:10:00] lesson. Every week I have to come up with new stuff. So I have 10 minutes for each session to to plan it, prepare it, and 10 minutes is not a lot.

So we have to be fast. We have to be on the go. And that's something we have worked a lot on. Like we have AI features, we have readymade content. Uh, just have your PDFs ready, upload them to Kahoot, have an ai, create a ready, make Kahoot for you. It's, it's like. On the go, like it has to be on the go. It cannot take too much time 'cause teachers do not have time.

And the time that you have for learning in the classroom, it's so precious. Yeah. The face-to-face you have with kids is so precious.

And this is the amazing thing about technology and what it enables us to do is that you don't have to spend all that time creating everything. Yeah. Because you can use other tools to help you create it in a more effective and efficient way.

And, and so being able to just upload a PDF and have it create [00:11:00] whatever you need to from that is really powerful because you've already done. The work there, having to cut and paste individual questions, for example, is exceptionally tedious, and it shouldn't have to be that way. what are some of the cool things that you're working on creating right now for teachers as tools?

Well, we have the, it's already on the, on the platform, the ai, so you can, you can start with a prompt. And, and say, let's do finish history. Um, uh, first of all, world War time, let's do a quiz about that. Or if I am, 'cause AI can be a little, you know, it needs a check. AI can dream a little bit sometimes. Yeah, and if you wanna be specific, like this is my curriculum goals, this is the material, then I upload the material as a PDF, and then it's not taking any, anything anywhere else.

It's just going and creating the questions from the material I upload. And the Q is, um, quite finished. [00:12:00] Um, you can create an interactive presentation as well. I think that's, that's cool. So you have slides and you have questions in between. So you can spice up your teaching, you can upload your, um, existing slide decks and just add questions and polls and maybe some conversation questions in between to create more interactive things.

Um, I think that's a big time saver for teachers. We have a lot of new game modes. I'm really into including everyone. And I know like there are the podium queens of the classroom. Mm-Hmm. Always win no matter the cahoot, but there is the kid who never wins, right? Mm-Hmm. Who's never on the podium. And I, and I, I feel for that kid.

I was the last in every skiing competition in school. I, I remember that. Shame to this day. And I hate skiing and I will not ski. [00:13:00] But to have that, that negative experience, to see that you'll never succeed is something that we do wanna change. And we have created a lot of different ways to involve kids and let everyone shine in their own way.

I. Like the classic game is you answer questions, you compete. It's a friendly competition against your friends, and that has its place as well. It's a, it's a fun way to assess the classroom's knowledge to get like everyone's voice. Uh. Kind of have a feeling where everyone's learning is at. So you as a teacher can, uh, think what to do next on how to continue the lesson.

Mm-Hmm. But we have, we have as well, uh, team-based games. So it's a team against team or my favorite games that are full collaborative games. So it's the classroom together. As learning is we together everyone on their own paths? Yes. But we together and we're together collecting, [00:14:00] uh, coins or we're together running away from a robot or we're together doing something.

And that allows us to highlight that when a student who never sees themselves on the big screen, on the podium, they see their face, they see their name, and they see their avatar. Succeeding and, and sending points or running away from the, the robot or, or whatever. And I, I think that's, that's been such a joy for, for me 'cause I'm, I'm a math teacher as well and math is one of those topics that are so emotional for kids.

Mm-Hmm. And I went to this, um, special education classroom, uh, with this game mode. We were, we were testing at the time. It's, it's a game mode where everyone plays at their own level and pace. So if you make a mistake, you know what? No one knows. No one knows. Go ahead try out things. No one, no one really, everyone is [00:15:00] just doing their own things, but together you're competing as a classroom or giving coins to this, um, to this chest and there, what

does, what does that look like?

Playing at your own speed and at your own level? Can you describe that a little bit?

So you launch a game as a classroom, everyone joins in with their devices. It would pen like you normally do on a cahoot. And instead of the questions being on the big screen, the big screen starts this different kind of a collaborative game.

It might be that, uh, you see everyone sees their avatar on the big screen and they're running away from the robot, okay? Mm-Hmm. So the questions come to the student devices. They come, they are self-paced, so the timer doesn't matter anymore. So the student that gets stressed over the timer can succeed as well.

And if you answer incorrectly, it's fine. It's totally fine. No one sees it. No one knows you answered incorrectly. The answer will [00:16:00] come the the question will come again, and you'll have another try, and another try and another try. We have a bunch of math games as well, uh, on the platform, and they, they adapt to the kids.

So if you're a very fast child, you get harder tasks. If, if you wanna take your time, if you need more practice, you get more practice on the things you, you need to practice on. Mm-Hmm. But at the same time, everyone is playing together. This connectness is something. That is very important to us. So it's not everyone on their own devices alone.

We wanna be together. So we are trying to achieve some kind of a goal. We try to collect coins or we try to run from a, um, a crazy robot or something funny, something humoristic that makes the kids laugh a little bit, that it's a little bit silly. But when they answer correctly enough times, they can, let's say, send in coins and in the big screen they see their face.

They see their avatar and [00:17:00] they see their avatars sending coins to the together, to the uh, uh, to the money pot. They're collecting, let's say. And this kid in this special ed classroom was so nervous to play. He was game about fractions. He cried a little bit. He was like, I'm not gonna play. I'm not good at fractions.

I'm not gonna play. And I said, let's play one. Let's play one to test it out. You don't have to play another one. And when he realized that he, it's, it's fine. Like nothing bad, he, he will not be embarrassed. He will not be ashamed. He will not have that negative mm-Hmm. Because he has such a negative perception of himself as a learner, as, as a mathematician that we all are the joy when he understood that his name is on the big screen for the first time that he's sending coins and he's yelling to everyone.

To his friends. Like, guys, look at the big screen. Look at, look at me. It's me, it's [00:18:00] me. I'm on the big screen. I'm giving you coins and I'm giving you diamonds and I'm giving us stuff like, I am contributing this game Is, this game is my game as well. Yeah. It's not just the fast, fast hits game, it's just not the, it's it's game for everyone.

I am part of it and it's such an important thing. I think specifically after a pandemic to feel part of a community, a learning community, that you feel safe and you feel accepted and you feel like you belong. Yeah, that's, um, that was a nice game. And we did play other games as well, and he said that that was a nice game.

Yeah, that's, that was cool. That's awesome. And, and what I really appreciate about that Mera is when, when you give kids an opportunity to add value, that's what's really valuable. And it's, it's one thing to be part of a community, but it's another thing to add value to that community. And so Ryan [00:19:00] Godson talks about, um.

Three different levels of our, of our mindsets, that mindset 1.0 is that we, we just belong, like we're a family, right? And a lot of people say that, like it's this great thing and it's good to feel like you are part of a community and that's fine. Uh, and the next level up is that we're part of a team and we work together to win.

And then the third level, mind level 3.0 is that we are, uh. We each add and contribute value to each other, and that because of that we are. We all have value and give value to this bigger group. And that's a different perspective than what most people think about. But being able to not just be part of the community, like we're all playing this game together, but I'm actually contributing and helping us get away from this robot.

That's a really powerful thing for anybody to feel adults, children, anybody. And, and I, I really like that approach that you don't [00:20:00] have to be, you know, previously it was the, um. The, the fastest one was the only one who, who received value in there. Um, yeah. And, and everybody else was just like, like when my daughter goes into a class, like she knows she's gonna be in the top three all the time, and even if she doesn't know the content, she understands how to play the game.

Well enough that she's always gonna be successful. Um, and, and there are other kids who they see her come in. Like even in my own family, there's six of us when we play, we know she's gonna be on the podium. And some of my children are like, I don't even wanna play because

yeah, if,

if mom and dad are playing and her, I don't have a chance, you know?

And, and so these different types of games I think are, are a lot of fun. Uh, anything else that you all are working on that's, that's pretty cool.

Well, for classroom, we're really working on Ca Utopia, which, which is [00:21:00] super fun. It's an island that a teacher can open. It's, it's very new. I think it, we launched like a month ago.

It's super new. It's an island and what's

it called again?

Kahoot Topia.

Kahu. Topia, okay. Ca

Utopia. Yeah. Yeah. So you can, you can launch an island for your classroom. Right. And it's a tiny island. It's tiny tropical island. But when you play a cahoot. Let's say you play a math Kahoot, you unlock after the game, you unlock a tiny math house on the island to show that you played a math Kahoot, and you unlock a little prize like a a, a hut.

And if you replay. The same Kahoot, you see the heart growing and then when you do maybe a language, Kahoot, you get a language house and you grow your island and you grow your skills. And what we wanted to achieve with this is the fact that it's, it's like a learning portfolio. Like learning doesn't happen.

Magically without effort. It, it takes a lot of time. It, it's small, small, tiny steps [00:22:00] together that after a year you have learned something. But when we look back at the learning, it, it's easy to forget how much effort it was. And it's, it's an important thing to discuss with the students. You know what, uh, when you were learning how to read, you remember how much work it was like, this applies again, it applies that we need to put in the effort and it's small, tiny steps and we don't see.

Big jumps. Like, I'm not gonna go tomorrow morning and be fluent in French, but I have to rejoice the small, tiny steps of learning. And that's what we wanna bring into discussion, into the, um, center in the classrooms as well. Like, yes, we're building this island together as a classroom. We're building this, uh, portfolio of learning, this path of learning that in the end of the year, we can look together and see guys, we did a lot of work.

We actually, we have played a lot of games. We have practiced a lot of things. We have done a mountain of work and we should be proud of this work that, that we have done.

Mm-Hmm. [00:23:00] Yeah. So, uh, I, I really like that idea because that's an idea that I've had for a long time. And here's my, my challenge is. In education because we are grouped in grade level bands and in classrooms, then a lot of times the learning that happens outside of that isn't recognized or given credit.

Right. And so one of my big things that, you don't know this about me, but I've been talking for years about giving kids real authentic opportunities to learn inside the classroom, but then also taking the things they're doing. And quote unquote counting them for what they're doing inside the classroom.

So, for example, let's say that there's a, a fifth grade student who writes in a journal every night and, and is continually improving her writing by writing in a journal. And let's say that she [00:24:00] has an opportunity to, uh, to be in like a contest where she writes a short story or something, um, or, or any other kind of writing.

A poem, whatever, in my mind, the student should be able to bring that in and the teacher should say, I see what you've created here and I see that you understand these different things. You don't have to do this work because you've already shown it outside of class, that this, that this is possible. So this idea of a personal portfolio I've been a big fan of for a long time and think that that should exist and the challenge.

That I see with what you're doing is that these islands sound like they exist in the classroom and that's it, and, and they're still confined to that barrier. They truly are an island, and there's not a way to, to bring in the learning experiences from outside. So what, what I foresee then would be, at the very least, if a school.[00:25:00]

It has the Kahoot subscription or whatever that looks like. I don't even know if the school has that. Then the island, you know, if you're playing Kahoot in math class, uh, and you have English language arts questions or science questions that come into that. That should contribute to the island in your math class and vice versa.

And so that's certainly more complicated. But the reality is, is that learning is hard. And yeah, learning does not just happen in the four walls of the classroom. Learning happens all over the place. And kids will three weeks later after a lesson say, oh, I know how that relates back to this thing. And, and now I understand it, and whenever possible, I want to be able to acknowledge and recognize those learning insights and help the kids see that that matters too, that it's not just what happens in the classroom.

What's your take on that?

I [00:26:00] totally agree. I, I feel like we put a lot of effort, like a lot of emphasis on academic skills and we at, at least in school, and we don't highlight enough that we are talented and smart and curious. Yes. Individual in all these different ways. And if we let kids teach us what they are good at, it just opens up for them to show these are the things.

I am amazing at, but I never get to show it. In, in school. So we do wanna build into this island idea. And, and part of it is, is having student rostering, like having students connect and having them, like the things that they do at home matters in the island as well, so that they, they can come on Monday and say like, I wanna show you, like, I wanna a teacher, I wanna show you, I wanna show everyone what I did this weekend.

Like, I've discovered this skill, or I wanna show this skill and I wanna show like. How it, [00:27:00] how it kind of fits into this, this, um, education that I'm, that I'm in. Because we are, I mean, we're like, you're, we're, Ima imagining the, the future of education. What does it look like? And we wanna build these different skills into it.

Like whether it's, um, the 21st century skills, like these skills that don't really. They're not visible necessarily in the, in the basic curriculum lesson structure, but they exist and they're sort of hidden into it, and they're, they're so valuable for the kids.

Hmm. Yeah, they really are. I mean, they really are.

And, and there's so much more that we can do, and especially with how technology, um, enables things that like it hasn't before. You know, I, I especially, you talked about going into a special ed classroom before, and, and one of the things that, um, that all kids need, but especially kids who have learning disabilities, is.

Lots of repetition. Yes, and, and [00:28:00] lots of practice doing something. And for a teacher to create a, uh, a worksheet for a kid to go through and then to grade that and make sure they're getting it, this is a place where AI and tools like Kahoot and other things can really be beneficial because you don't have to create as much because you can say.

Drill and kill this kid on these specific things. And it, I don't think that that should be the norm for everybody. But sometimes you just need a lot of repetition and a lot of practice and a lot of exposure to something. And it's totally appropriate to do that when that is the default pedagogical approach.

That's where I have a problem. But when somebody needs it, then we should unlock the floodgates and give them thousands and thousands of opportunities to try this. And, um. And that just makes a huge difference to kids who, who need the practice and the repetition. And we need to [00:29:00] enable that as, as simply as possible for the student and for the teacher, so that if there's five minutes of downtime, if that kid can practice for those entire five minutes, that's a really powerful thing and that's really beneficial.

And going back to that island idea. That if you're practicing these little spurts, that still matters and that still counts and that still helps you, uh, grow and improve and, and that kind of stuff matters.

I totally agree. Like AI gives us the opportunity of explore the progressions and give you the challenge you need and the practice you need and, and also the variety of things like looking, giving you a variety of, of ways to practice as well.

Um, and potentially like. This is definitely my dream. Like variety, variety of ways to show your knowledge, to show your learning. So you could, um, yeah, there's many possibilities that we're exploring, but you could have more waste than one to show it, to, [00:30:00] to answer, to answer a question that you could, um, you could make talk, you could write, you could, you could draw, you could really like explain it that you'd have the tools to show and explain.

Uh, I think that's. That's something that I'm, I'm really fan of. Like, when I teach math, math is so hard to, 'cause it's so abstract, it's so hard to, um, explain it. But one of my, my favorite, um, favorite task activities for kids was very simple. Like with a pair, explain to me, to, to a video. You can, you can record it as many times as you wanted.

And it was just for classroom use. Like explain to a video like you would do a, you know, um. It's not a podcast. What is it like a YouTube video?

Yeah, like a short or Instagram reel or TikTok. Like

an Instagram? Yeah, like a TikTok type of reel where you explain what, like how you, how you do this or how you count this.

And then it's fantastic for me and to everyone [00:31:00] see their ideas like. How do you visualize counting area or how do you visualize this and how they chose to visualize it and how they chose to explain it. 'cause when you can teach it, then you really know it. So to have these, incorporate these ideas of showing your knowledge, uh, in different ways.

And I'm a firmer believer as like when you're opening your mouth and verbalizing a thing. Even for the first time, then you're kind of reformulating it in your head as well. That kind of interaction that we have. Like with between you and me, we're reformulating. We're thinking, we're learning all the time.

And that's what learning as well. It's not a, um, it's not a thing you do in solitude inside your own head. It's a conversation between maybe a text, a material, it's an interactive thing. It's, it's something that happens when we have a conversation.

Mm-Hmm. Yeah, that's, that's really powerful and that, that is the beauty of what I've been doing on this podcast for the last 10 years is [00:32:00] I've been learning the whole time, I've been figuring things out, trying to understand new ways of understanding and doing different things, and I.

It's been a very, I, I call it learning in dog years. 'cause I learned so much faster by doing it this way. And so I tell everybody they should have a podcast because it's a really powerful way to learn and it's a powerful way also to document your learning. Yes. And so. You can go through the 700 plus episodes that I've done on this podcast, and you can see all these different things that I've learned, all these questions that I've asked, and now what is amazing with technology and ai, that is, that I can now start doing semantic search on the things that I'm talking about so I can go find different clips and things that relate to the things that I, uh, that I've been talking about for years.

And things that I just kind of halfway mentioned, you can go find where I've gone into detail about those or ask specific questions about those and, and being [00:33:00] able to have that corpus of knowledge that is out there is really powerful and I think everybody should have that for themselves. And it's so much more than just having a, a grade on a test or a grade on a course and really having.

A collection of your own portfolio of learning, um, that is vast, which everybody's is. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. It's, it's so powerful. And to understand that learning is like, it's something you do a little by little. It's, it's so invisible at times to know you're making progress and how we could like build on it and show it and celebrate it, celebrate the small milestones as well.

Yeah. And, and see where we can go. And that's why I love, um, I love working with kids. They're extremely honest. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. I, I love that. You, you see what they don't understand and they, they say what they don't like and building things. We do a lot of like, uh, co-creation with teachers and, and students.[00:34:00]

Trying out things and seeing what works, what doesn't work, what is the intent behind this one? What we were hoping to see with this one, what we didn't see. And being very honest with ourselves as well as, as I think it's our duty as a, as a company, as, um, respect the, the kids, respect them, always respect the teacher and, and listen to them and understand what they're saying.

And if something didn't work as we wanted to be honest with ourselves and go back and, and iterate, we. You know, fail often is the thing we say at the office, like, we do things, we're gonna fail. That's the part of learning process. Then we try again, and then we learn from that failure. And that's the, the mindset of the kids as well.

Learning without mistakes. That's, that's. Not, not learning then something is wrong. Making mistakes is part of the process. We just have to em embrace them, and we have to be in a space where we know that we can do the mistake. And we're not embarrassed. We're [00:35:00] not shunned, we're, it's fine. It's a opportunity to explore.

Yeah. Oh, beautifully said. Um, alright, good stuff. If you wanna learn more about Kahoot, go to kahoot.com. Uh, would, would you like to add anything else about how people can get in touch with you or, or learn from you?

Um, definitely I'm happy to discuss, um, with, with teachers. I'm happy to discuss with the classrooms that wanna co-create with us or, or wanna work with us.

I wonder. If there are show notes that where I can put my email address.

Yeah, absolutely. I can, I can put your, uh, I name it's

difficult to, to, to write.

Yeah. Uh, I, there is, um, I have a link to your LinkedIn so people can connect with you there. Oh yeah. Perfect. That's

amazing.

That way, uh, people can just go find that that is.

Very right up at the top of the show notes at Transformative principle.org. Uh, you can go find it and then, um, you can get in touch with her and see, uh, [00:36:00] what, what kinds of cool things you can do together. So Amanda, thank you so much for being part of Transformative Principle. This was awesome.

Thanks for having me.