Transformative Principal

Jethro Jones: Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading.

I am your host, Jethro Jones.

You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones.

Jethro D. Jones: Alright, welcome to Transformative Principle.

I am so excited to have today Will Richardson on the program.

Um, if you don't know Will Richardson, I don't know where you've been in education for the last, uh, 30 years, but, uh, will someone that I have admired and followed for a long time and uh, learned a ton from.

So will welcome to Transformative Principle.

Great to have you.

Will Richardson: Thanks very much Jethro.

Your uh, $50 is in the mail for

that nice introduction,

Jethro D. Jones: All right.

Excellent.

. Well, um, so you've started a new, uh, a new cohort with some people doing some cool stuff, which is what you're always doing.

So why don't you tell us about this new, uh, approach?

Um, we'll talk about your manifesto also.

Will Richardson: Yeah.

So I mean, one of the things that, as I look back on my career, uh, of almost 40 years in education, but certainly 20 years now, um, speaking, consulting, I. You know, working with schools is that I find that I evolve about every five years or so.

And so, um, I'm in, in the moment of evolution again where a lot of the reading that I've been doing and a lot of the thinking that I've been doing has been around the context and the realities that are happening in the world right now, and the growing dissonance between what.

Kids need to be able to do, to navigate these, these challenges and, you know, this kind of interesting future that's coming our way and the still very traditional, um, approaches of, of, of schools, whether that's.

Pedagogy, whether it's, uh, the experience that they build.

So, so I wrote the manifesto and I basically, uh, tried to make the case that schools, the purpose of schools right now needs to be able to help kids become spiritually, physically, and emotionally ready, um, for navigating what is going to be, uh, a, a time of chaos, complexity, and collapse.

Those are the, the three Cs that I kind of framed it as, and that.

Um, we really have to use that as a lens right now for the, uh, for what we create, for what we do in classrooms and for the outcomes that we, um, that we articulate for, you know, what our kids, what we want our kids to be able to do.

Um, and so it's a lens that I think is, is pretty, uh, provocative, obviously.

Uh, I mean, the name of the manifesto was confronting Education, um, in a time of complexity and chaos and collapse.

So, um, I, I decided that I'd like to, I. Try to put together a group of folks to go into that and dive into that and, and really be a little bit confrontational, um, in thinking about education and schooling and doing it in a, in a safe and trusted space.

So, uh, I put out the call for, um, people to join.

I was hoping for about 25.

I ended up with 68.

Um, which tells me that there are quite a few people out there I think, who are feeling like this.

Uh, again, this moment is, is really filled with this, this challenge and are looking for spaces to talk about it, to process it.

To rub elbows with other people who are feeling it as well.

The very cool thing is that we've also got nine students from around the world.

Um, I, I wanted to make sure that we heard the voices of children in these conversations, because obviously when you're in schools or when you're in education, what you're talking about is what?

It's happening with kids in classrooms.

So we're in our second week.

I have, uh, two cohorts going, one on Tuesday, one on Wednesday.

Did our second week, uh, yesterday with the Tuesday cohort.

Um, and it's been, I think it's been great.

I.

Um, we've, we've really been able to dive into some very difficult and challenging conversations about the state of the world and about the state of education.

So, uh, I'm hoping that those types of conversations can continue and, and that might grow into something, um, that will be really worthwhile for, for all educators who are feeling it at

this moment.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, that's good.

So I, I have a link in the show notes to the manifesto itself and, uh, to your substack, uh, future Serious School, um, that people should definitely go and check out.

But I want to ask a key question that I get frustrated with all the time and.

One of, one of the problems that we have with the world we live in right now is that it seems like everything is political and.

And there, there is that aspect of it that everything's political, but then there's a separate aspect, um, which is that people align themselves to politics like it's a religion.

How do you, how do you go beyond that and, and talk about these things without the, uh, the, the problem that we often fall into, which is, well, if

A different person we're in power.

This wouldn't be the problem because the reality is it doesn't matter who's in power, uh, and especially, uh, focused here in the United States.

It doesn't matter who's in power.

These problems have been going on for a long time, and they will continue to persist regardless of who comes into power in the future.

So how do you keep that political aspect?

Out of it or make that not the, the complaint that, that, that is the problem.

How, what's your approach to that?

Will

Will Richardson: Well, I think that despite the politics, and I agree, it's hard, it's really hard.

Um, but despite the politics, there are still, there is still common ground here.

I. Um, I know one of the things that home and I did in the Big Questions Institute, um, you know, in kind of the work that I was doing up until this point, um, we had a nine now a 12 big questions book.

And the first one is, what is Sacred?

Right?

And we'd go and we'd ask schools and parents and communities.

Well, when you think about this particular school, 10, 15, 25 years down the road, what do you wanna make sure still exists?

If you came back in 50 years, what, what do you want?

To make sure is still there.

And there was wide consensus relationships, community care, um, that, you know, that there was relevance, that, you know, all the things that I think we all, when we think about kids and we think about the future, we all say those same things.

We want them to flourish, we want them to thrive.

And at

the very core, there's a lot of coherence and a lot of shared, um, thinking about that.

Um, where it gets a little bit sticky is obviously when you begin pushing back against traditional narratives where people find comfort, um, where a lot of it is pol politically driven in terms of, you know, again, here in the states how we measure success.

Um, what we are actually having kids become educated for, all of those things, right?

Um, but again, I think that there is enough of a, of a starting point.

Where we can go in.

I think any of us can go to our school communities and say, can we just talk?

Can we just have a chat here, you know, about some of the really important questions, uh, acknowledging that this is a little bit of a different moment in the world, obviously, and maybe not going into those particulars, but just saying things are changing right now, and what does that mean for our children moving forward?

We, I, I think also, uh, at the end of the day, if you can get people to talk and have a conversation about it, I think we all realize we can't, we can't go backwards, right?

We can't hold on to a lot of those things that, again, if we're honest about it, have brought us to this moment.

Look, schools are complicit, right?

We're all complicit

in, in what's happening right now.

And I'm not talking about politics per se.

I'm talking about the climate.

You know, aspects, the challenges that we have environmentally, the, the, the, the challenges that we have with the loss of biodiversity equity issues.

Um, you know, all of those things that,

uh, we can't ignore.

And so, uh, yeah, I think that there is some enough common ground to get these conversations started, but I'm not gonna sit here and tell you that it's really easy to, um, to talk about these things at depth because they get really uncomfortable

and, um, people, people have to be willing to stick with it.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, they, they really do get uncomfortable.

And as, as I was working in Fairbanks, Alaska, designing a K 12 magnet school, and I had all these conversations with parents, with community members, with school board members, uh, with employees, that question of what do you want to still exist in 50 years was really powerful.

And, and what you're looking at there is . What do you want to be true for your grandchildren?

And it's, it's not just about like, what's in it for me?

What, what am I gonna get from myself right now or for my own kids?

But really, what do, what do I want to be true for my grandkids, assuming they still live here, but even if they don't.

What do I want for the grandkids of my community?

And, and this, this perspective, I think is really important because one of the things that I've, uh, one of the stakes I've put down on the ground is that education is the responsibility of the family.

I. They are the core unit of society and it's their responsibility to educate their children and raise them up to be adults.

And we can't ask anybody to do that unless we're saying we want to take away kids from their parents, which I don't think anybody truly wants to do.

But if we take that perspective that it's the parent's responsibility and then we enlist other people to help the parents with that responsibility, and particularly that they enlist other people to do that, then that changes the dynamic.

What, what's your thought on that perspective?

Will Richardson: Well, I, I do think that obviously parents are the fundamental educators in a child's

life, right?

Um, no matter what happens in a classroom, when kids come home, they learn more probably about what it means to be in a relationship.

What it means to be, you know, a good person, a good community member, whatever.

They learn that from their families more than they learn that from schools.

There's no question.

I would again, though, suggest that there's a lot of, of, of common, uh, feelings about what it means to be a good ancestor.

To go to your point about, you know, really thinking further down the road.

And I, I think all of us, none of us want kids in the future to suffer.

None of us want the earth to be.

You know, polluted and to be, uh, under duress.

None of us want any of those things that currently feel like they're in the mix.

So I think it becomes, again, a question of where can we start with some shared language, some shared beliefs, some shared, you know, some common, um, vision for what an education is.

And I think that's where it kind of comes off the rails, Jethro, to be

honest with you.

You know, I think that a lot of times, especially as you've mentioned before, already, the politics of it.

Um, get in, get in the mix in ways that make it difficult for all parents to feel like schools are a partner in the educating that

they're doing at home.

Right.

and and so, um, yeah, I think, you know, one of the things you're seeing right now is, is people trying to find the partner that fits with their worldview.

Um, and, uh, you know, I mean, there's a sense of separation that happens in that, that.

Ultimately is not gonna be good for us.

So again, it's like how do you come back to those, those shared those shared beliefs and those, those kind of shared visions

for what we all want.

I think we all want a world where kids can feel happy and, and healthy and to, to thrive and feel safe and all that kind of stuff.

So how do we do that together is, uh, is the really important question,

but it's hard.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

It, it certainly is.

And, and the key thing that I've found with this is like what you said in here, none of a, like being a good ancestor, . that that takes some intention and takes some some time to think about that and say, well, what does that mean for me to be good, be a good ancestor because we don't think about that, you

Will Richardson: And that's the problem, right?

I

mean, it is something we kind of go, oh, what a question

instead of, well, that's the way I live my life.

You know?

I mean that's, that, that factors into everything that I do.

It's very, very rare.

Um, you go to indigenous communities, obviously, and, and there's much, much more of that, where there's this long-term thinking about, you know, again, the community, the world, all of that.

But for a lot of people, you know, in this, uh, kind of global north, very weird, you know, the acronym, right?

Um, that's not something that we think about very much at all.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Uh, so my, um, I'm in a men's group right now where that is what we are intentionally . Focusing on, not on making things good for us, but the, the plan is how do we make it good for our grandchildren?

What does that look like?

And we're looking at all aspects of, of society, our ourselves, our, our religious adherence, our uh, our physical fitness are.

You know, what we do for work and how we provide for families long term and, and all that kind of stuff.

And it's something that, you know, I look at my ancestors and what they taught me and I had this really cool experience to, uh, edit and update a. A biography about my great-grandfather, um, whose name was Tracy Buchanan.

And he was a, an organist and he ran a school of music.

And it was, it was really fascinating.

I didn't do much, I didn't add anything new to this, but I just got it ready so that, so that his descendants could buy the book and, and learn more about him.

And what was really fascinating going through that.

is, I had this gratitude for what he did to to help out his descendants, and one of those things was a love of music and my mom plays the organ and played the piano and has followed in her grand.

Her grandfather's footsteps, but I have not.

And I, after I did that, I felt this compulsion that I need to start, uh, playing the piano and, and tapping into this musical heritage that I have.

And I haven't done that effectively.

And I started taking piano lessons and learning again, and, and it was great.

But the, the reason that I bring this up is I don't think he was thinking about that for me.

I want to start thinking like that for my grandchildren and great-grandchildren.

And so that has to change how I do some, some things that I'm doing.

And one of the things that I have changed is how I talk to my kids about what really matters.

And, and for me personally, this has been huge.

And this is what cemented that idea of.

parents are the primary educators because it, it helped me see how what I was doing was going to impact them and what I was doing at work and helping children at school, uh, can impact them as as well.

But I still have to recognize that the parents are first and foremost, and I stopped asking parents to partner with us and I started asking, how can we help you raise your children?

How can what, where do you need support and help?

And, and that made a huge difference also because people would start saying things that aren't really in the purview of school, but that schools have been asked to adopt.

And it's a lot different when society is saying, schools need to do this, than when a parent is saying, I need help teaching my kid about how to use technology appropriately.

There's a big difference between those two approaches.

Will Richardson: But I think what you said in the beginning of that response is really important too.

And that is that you're willing to kind of unpack your life and take a look at it, step back from it and ask the questions about, you know, what, how is this impacting the future?

How is this impacting

my family?

All of that.

And I think that, um.

You know, we don't do enough of that type of reflection because it's really hard.

Right.

Again.

Right.

It's just really hard.

And so, you know, the question becomes how can we, and because I really just believe we all need to do this personally, but then we all need to do it in the context of education if we're concerned with that.

Right.

But, you know, how do we again, bring those hard conversations like, um, you know, Vanessa TI and Hospice in Moderna calls them these denials that we have

about, um, what's happening in the world, our, our contribution to it, what's happening in schools, and how do we, how do we create spaces where we can sit with those things, right?

And, and really, and really think about them deeply.

And take time to reflect on our own practice.

Um, which is again, one of the reasons that, you know, I I, I'm trying to start these, these cohorts because I just, it is personal work first, right?

Um, we, we had a phrase, Homan, and I have this phrase where we called it soul work before schoolwork,

right?

And it, it really is about, um, just interrogating our own.

Position our own kind of interaction in this moment and um, and asking questions like you're asking about.

Well, how is this impacting

and is this helping?

Um, or is this contributing to things that, that I really don't want to see continue?

So,

um, to me that's a, that's a huge question.

You know, how do we create those spaces?

Margaret Wheatley calls 'em, I think islands of sanity,

right?

Where, where we can come together and be good humans with one another and really try to work on those things that we, we think are most important.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, so I, a few years ago I did a, a podcast where I was on somebody else's podcast about, uh, environmental, uh, climate change type stuff.

And, um, and, and my whole premise for that conversation was that, um.

My belief is we need to change the phrasing around that, that it is really about stewardship of the natural resources that we have.

That, and this goes back to that value thing that you were talking about before, that if we recognize that we are stewards of the land and the natural resources that we have, I think we'll look at it in a different way.

We have to use the things the earth gives us.

To live.

And, but we have to do it in a way that is, uh, being a good steward of that and providing for, for our children in the future.

And, um, and, and so what do you think about that idea of, of using stewardship as the focus.

Will Richardson: Yeah, I think that that's a, a, a. A good framing of how we need to operate in the world.

I also think that we need to acknowledge and we need to get to the reason why we need to be good stewards.

And, and I think it's not just to take care of nature

in order to be sustainable.

You know, I think it's because, um, we are the collapse that I'm talking about.

Um, is really a relationship collapse.

Um, we are out of relation with one another, by and large as human beings, and we are certainly out of relation with other living things on the planet.

So if we are to really be stewards, then we really need to feel a kinship.

With, um, those other living things and not make it just like, well, it's my responsibility, you know, and

I, I have to take care of these things.

No, we're taking care of our kin.

We're taking care of one another, and that should be the way we operate in the world.

Um, but again, schools have contributed to this by making nature something out there

by not.

Giving kids much time to go out and be in nature to connect with their kin.

Um, and, and so, you know, I, I, again, we need to unpack and really take a look at, you know, how are we in relation with one another and, and with, uh, with the rest of all the life on the planet.

And I know that gets really kind of meta and kind of wooey and, you

know, sometimes.

People kind of roll their eyes a little bit.

But look, that is the challenge that we have right now.

That is the metris, the metris, all these other things are symptoms.

If we were in relation to one another and to all the other living things on the planet, climate change wouldn't be happening right now.

There wouldn't be inequity in the world.

There wouldn't, you know, all of those things are because we are not in a caring relationship in with one another and, and with the rest of the planet.

And so, again, for me, the, the role of schools.

By and large right now is to begin to really focus on building, rebuilding, regenerating those relationships, um, and, and thinking about how we can restore that sense of connection.

Uh, because right now we are, we are just kind of splicing it out.

Um, we, we make, by the way, our connections to one another in schools fraught by making it about competition by seeding, you know, sorting kids and all that kind of thing.

And then, like I said, we don't wanna give them any chance to go out and really explore and connect to nature.

So, um, to me that's the fundamental challenge that we have right now.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I, I appreciate that.

And if, if there's nothing else we get from this conversation, that idea of being out of relation with each other and with the world as, as a whole and every living thing in it, um, I think that is definitely, uh.

Like you said, the core problem that everything else is a, is a symptom of that and that's a good place to start.

Um, so I mentioned I've got the manifesto in your substack in the show notes@transformativeprinciple.org.

Um, what else?

How would you like people to get in touch with you about doing one of these cohorts with you, uh, in the future?

What does that look like?

Will Richardson: Yeah.

well, so I'm right now actually putting dates together for the summer and, um, I think I have about 50 people on a waiting list

already.

So, um, looking forward to making that happen, uh, if that, all that information is at Future Series School, so it's pretty easy.

Um, you can see everything that is entailed in, in the, um, workshops.

It's six, uh, six.

75 minute sessions with a 45 minute post game if anybody wants to just stay and talk and process.

And we do that over every other week.

So it's about about three months, over three months that that happens.

But anyway, yeah, I, I mean.

You know, I would say to people if they're listening to this and they're feeling, um, they're feeling a, uh, uh, the, the challenges that are happening in the world, they're feeling a little bit just this dissonance that's, that's going on in terms of schooling and education and it's relevance to the world.

Um, and if you're feeling like you're ready to, to go there and sit with it, you know, um.

Come on and join us because, uh, like I said, it's, it's been two weeks, but the conversations so far have been, uh, really, really meaningful and I think, uh, really helpful to a lot of people who are feeling stress and anxiety right now.

It's not Therapy.

Don't wanna say it's Therapy.

but it is a place to come and process, which I think is really important right now.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

And, and it's not necessarily going to make you feel any better,

Will Richardson: No.

In fact, I think the first couple weeks

have made people feel a little bit worse, you know?

'cause I said to 'em at the beginning, I said, you know, we take this kind of in two sessions.

Uh, one, the first two sessions are getting real, you

know?

And it's like, so let's face this stuff.

Let's just kind of be the Marines where we break you down.

And now, you know, sessions three through six will be kind of, let's build us, build ourselves back up here and see what we can really do with.

The acknowledgement that, you know, all of this stuff is happening and that it's really hard right now.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, for sure.

Well, uh, check out Future sirius.school and, uh, will thank you so much for being part of transformative principle.

It is always great to talk with you and, uh, been a big fan of your work for many, many years and grateful every opportunity I have to chat, so thank you.

Will Richardson: Thanks, Jetta.

It was really great to reconnect.