Transformative Principal

Jethro D. Jones: to
Transformative Principal.

I am very excited to have on
the program today, Emily Alki.

She is a former high school business
computer education teacher, turned

curriculum geek, and she's the
vice president of the Curriculum

Leadership Institute, which is a
nonprofit organization that partners

with school districts to improve
teaching and learning by developing

a local curriculum first, which.

If you know me, I love this idea and
want you to also, check out episode

6 57 of Transformative Principle,
which is called Using AI Layering to

create hyper localized curriculum.

I. Brent on that one, talked about
what he's doing and it is amazing.

So you're gonna wanna listen to that one.

And this one, I'm sure we're
gonna touch on some things.

That one just released, so
Emily hasn't heard it yet.

And she, can't speak to it yet, but
I'll bring in some things from that.

So we're gonna start with that.

And.

If you've heard this name Alki before,
you know that I love the Alki family,

all of them, and I'm really excited.

Emily and I have been chatting
for the past few years.

She is Eric Mackey's wife, and and.

didn't realize that this
family is in education.

When I first met Eric so many years
ago, and now each time I meet a new one,

I'm just like, Hey, you're awesome too.

So Emily, welcome to
Transformative Principal.

I'm so glad to have you.

Emily Makelky: Thank you.

Thank You I'm, I'm obviously excited
to talk about curriculum today.

But, when you used to have Eric on the
podcast, for so long, I always kinda

wondered, are you gonna pull his wife
in to talk about the emotional side

or being the spouse of a principal?

Because it's heavy.

It's heavy for sure.

Jethro D. Jones: it is.

And we, won't talk about that today.

I won't put you on the spot
'cause that was not the plan.

But, we should at some point,
have some spouses on because,

spouses carry a big burden.

And my wife certainly has.

you have, lots of spouses have.

And I'm sure that would be an interesting
little, discussion to have about how

to manage that from the other side.

Emily Makelky: It would be, I, I would
assume that, all the principals would

just be like, I know I've heard it.

I know.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Yeah.

Emily Makelky: anyway.

Jethro D. Jones: that's good.

we're gonna talk about curriculum today,

Emily Makelky: Great.

Jethro D. Jones: so I wanna start by
talking about the, the difference between,

what curriculum is, how you see it, and
then let's talk about the difference

between curriculum and resources, and
then we can get into some other things.

Emily Makelky: bet.

You bet.

I, think it's actually really simple,
curriculum, I would say the definition

of curriculum is simply, what is it that.

We're teaching our kids, what is
it that we value in our district,

and our kids need to learn.

And really it's just the what, there are,
in teaching and learning, there's the

what, there's the why, there's the how.

There's the how do and pulling it
back to our, the PLC questions,

it is the first PLC question.

What do we want kids to
know and be able to do?

That essentially is the curriculum piece.

And thinking about kind of
the, differences between

that and, and, resources.

I think that the two
are confused very often.

Especially when you're talking
to say elementary teachers.

Very often in elementary schools
they talk about, we teach this

curriculum and they will name.

A resource or a program that they teach.

But truly what I would say is
that the curriculum comes even

before you adopt that program and
figure out within our district or

within our schools, what is it?

What skills, what content, what
knowledge do we want our kids to

know and be able to do, and then
find resources to support that.

Jethro D. Jones: so the resources is more
the how we teach it or the, with what

Emily Makelky: Yep.

Jethro D. Jones: so what about
curriculum versus standards?

Because in my experience, I would say
that you're describing as a curriculum

is really the standards and the resources
is the curriculum, the how you teach the

standards, how, where do you fall on that?

Emily Makelky: You bet.

standards of course, are,
adopted or created by the state.

And they basically tell, your teachers
or your school districts, hey, within

that state, hey, this is what kids
need to know and be able to do.

But the thing about those, there's,
two things that I want to point out.

The first is that,
actually is the minimum.

And some teachers, probably,
especially math teachers right

now are saying like, what?

That's the minimum and you
expect us to teach more.

Nope, not necessarily.

I don't expect you to teach more,
but if there are some skills or, if

there's content that is not included,
or that are not included in your state

standards, but that you value as a
school district, as a community, and

you want to include that, you can, you
have the, per you have permission, you

have the flexibility to do that and
include that into your, curriculum.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, so we won't get
into this whole discussion about the

minimum standard and whether or not states
trying to force too much or, any of that

Emily Makelky: Sure.

Jethro D. Jones: that's a
whole separate discussion.

And we're just going to recognize that
if you work in the United States, the

state has a curriculum or a, set of
standards that you are required, that's

the minimum that you should be teaching.

Emily Makelky: Correct.

Jethro D. Jones: and we can agree
with that and be, and we can

move on from that discussion.

Because the key piece here is that
you basically have to make sure

that those things that are supposed
to be taught are actually taught.

And if that's the case, then you're
doing the job that the state is

requiring, which totally fine.

But for anybody to think
that minimum is the like.

Is the doctrine, the thing that,
that only this and nothing but

this is, just crazy in my mind.

Emily Makelky: Sure.

Jethro D. Jones: this whole
like solo scriptura thing.

Like this is the only thing
and we can't accept anything

Emily Makelky: Yep.

Jethro D. Jones: Only the standards
that the state says is all we can teach.

That seems a little bizarre, right?

Emily Makelky: I agree.

And I would honestly say that would,
to me, it sounds like a cop out, for,

teachers or school districts to say, no,
we can't do more than what the state says.

I would just say that's a cop out.

You absolutely can, and and perhaps
you should, depending on, on, on

the factors in your school district.

Jethro D. Jones: yes.

And you, it's going to be hard to not.

Do more than the standards because you,
there, there's the implicit curriculum,

the explicit curriculum, and then other
biases and things that you bring in

and things that you think are important
you want your kids to know that

aren't necessarily in the standards.

And I said we weren't gonna go
into this, so we're not going

to, so we're gonna move on, but.

But the next thing is, is developing
this curriculum, what it is that

you're going to teach at your local
level, and how important that is.

So, talk about why that matters and how
local should we get school department,

or should it be limited to the district?

do you manage that?

Emily Makelky: we suggest.

That local means school
district, so district wide.

and really the, reason that we say that is
because very often we have kids transfer

from one school within a district to
a different school within a district.

And so if you keep the curriculum, the,
same, at least what it is you're teaching.

And if you think about pacing being
the same, and that really is a,

discussion maybe for another time,
but also a discussion at your kind of

district-wide decisionmaking level.

The reason behind that is so that
teachers can collaborate and talk about

what's working for them, and basically
how can you be a better teacher, but

also for those, kids that transfer
from one school to another so that

there's no time wasted, they are,
able to, as much as possible, pick up

where they left off and, continue on.

So we would say that, your
curriculum, we would recommend

creating a a, guaranteed and viable
curriculum at the district level.

Jethro D. Jones: So having that
at the district level, why?

Why do we bring.

staff in to do this?

What's their, role in working on creating
that curriculum for the district?

Emily Makelky: there are a few
things to consider when doing this.

First, this is a big ask and for sure,
all of your administrators listening

right now are like, oh my gosh, I'm
supposed to ask them to do another thing.

They're gonna revolt.

And,

Jethro D. Jones: pause right there.

Emily Makelky: okay.

Jethro D. Jones: a

Emily Makelky: Okay.

Jethro D. Jones: I, so I'm doing
a doctoral program right now, and

last night in my class, one of the
principals said, I feel like I can never

ask my teachers to do anything more
because they're always doing so much.

And I gotta tell you, Emily,
that is such a cop out.

it drives me crazy because teachers
want to be doing meaningful work.

This developing the curriculum that
you're gonna teach is meaningful work.

You know what they don't want to do?

They don't wanna do another baloney,
doesn't matter, form that the district

needs or something that doesn't
impact what's going on in their

Emily Makelky: Yep.

Jethro D. Jones: So it's not that
teachers are too busy to do the things

that they need to do, it's that we
ask them to do stupid things like

filling out a form for reimbursement,

Emily Makelky: Yeah, sure.

Jethro D. Jones: That is one of the
things that is a little tedious thing.

Doesn't take a ton of time, but it takes
enough that it disrupts your flow and

it's not what teachers are typically good

Emily Makelky: Yep.

Jethro D. Jones: This, however, is
the thing that they should be spending

their time and energy on figuring
out what and how to teach their kids

that are right there in front of 'em.

Thank you.

I go

Emily Makelky: That I could
just see you like step up onto

that soapbox and step back down.

Jethro D. Jones: Yes, I do that a lot.

Yes.

Emily Makelky: I love it.

That's okay.

Yeah, and I would 100% agree
what I would argue too.

Is that developing your local curriculum
is the first thing that you should do.

or that, your, you should have your
teachers do, figuring out, because

it's the foundation of all of
teaching and learning what you know,

Jethro D. Jones: Okay.

All right.

I'm sorry.

I gotta

Emily Makelky: you're good.

Jethro D. Jones: again
because if you do this work.

Then a new teacher coming on, how
do you ask the new teacher to be

involved in the curriculum process?

If you've been doing this
work for five years, let's say

Emily Makelky: Yeah.

Jethro D. Jones: what's, their role?

Because what it sounds like you're
saying is you need to start and then

everybody does it and then we're done.

And I don't think that's
what you're actually saying.

Emily Makelky: No, it's not what I'm,
it's not what I'm saying, but it, what

I am saying though is if you don't ha,
if you have not already been through

this process, if you haven't already
identified what your curricular targets

are, then pause maybe some of your other
initiatives and focus on this one first.

Then revisit it.

Curriculum work never ends.

And I am a huge proponent for if something
isn't work, use your common sense.

If something is no longer working, let's
not just continue to do it because,

we are just told this is what we have
to do, but hey, let's revisit this and

say, you know what, it's not working.

Let's, fix it.

So typically, and, really best case
scenario is that, okay, we go through

this process, say for math, and we,
we, create their local curriculum

and then, and, put it in draft form.

We try it out for a year, two, we develop
some assessments that align to it.

Great.

We've got this nice little package that
now our teachers can use moving forward.

Excuse me.

But then we do need to
revisit it and revisit it.

As far as new teachers coming in,
this is like a huge, help, I know

when I started teaching and, I taught
business and computers, there, there

was nothing anywhere about what
is it that I should be teaching.

And I actually came from the business
world and started teaching, after I had

been, doing something else for a while.

So when I came in.

I'm looking around my classroom
like, okay, so what is it

that I should be teaching?

and I went down to my principal's
office and he said, I don't know.

You're the professional.

Teach what you think is right.

And I remember,

Jethro D. Jones: That's huge,

Emily Makelky: oh my gosh.

Jethro D. Jones: being told, you're the
professional, you decide what to teach.

that is not what most teachers hear.

Most teachers hear.

This is what you have to teach,
this is how you have to teach it.

And it is in incre.

that's really the case, just have,
just buy an AI bot to do it because.

What's the point of having a human

there?

I, and I'm not kidding either.

If, we know exactly what to teach and
how to teach, just have the, AI do it.

Emily Makelky: Sure.

Jethro D. Jones: sorry, I keep

Emily Makelky: No, you're good.

Jethro D. Jones: to your

Emily Makelky: I did,

Jethro D. Jones: on.

Emily Makelky: what was very scary
for me, was a couple of things.

I was not a teacher at that time.

I was just beginning my degree and, so
I. When he said that, I was terrified.

I was like, oh, shoot, I don't, know.

And in that same conversation, when I
applied to become a teacher, I applied

for the computer applications position.

But as I was talking to him, two
weeks before the start of school, I

also found out that I was gonna be
teaching Intro to Business, multimedia,

advanced Multimedia Accounting.

In your book.

All things.

Yeah, I was like, okay, so, I don't
know what I'm supposed, I didn't even

know what the word multimedia meant, let
alone teach it, and advanced multimedia.

So, bringing it back to my point about
if you have this curriculum that is

created, it is ready to go, and you have
assessments that are aligned to them.

You have a new teacher that comes in
and you do, a bit of training with them

on this is how you read the curriculum.

This is what it means, this is how you
use it to develop your lesson plans.

Then they at least ha at least know
what is it I'm supposed to be teaching?

And now they can use kind of data
points, what worked, what didn't work.

And it, and in my case, I was
the only teacher in the district.

It was a very small school
district, so I was the only one

that even taught these things.

But when you have, multiple teachers,
they can talk about what's working,

what isn't working, and really just
go back to that whole PLC, idea

and just focus on getting better.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

the idea of curriculum being.

Constantly evaluated

Emily Makelky: Yeah.

Jethro D. Jones: and checked.

A, perfectly appropriate thing for
a new teacher who's never taught it

before to do, is to come in and say,
here's where it doesn't make sense,

Emily Makelky: Sure.

Jethro D. Jones: and to give them a role.

As a newbie with fresh eyes who doesn't
hasn't been there for 20 years and

doesn't know all the ins and outs,
that's a great opportunity to listen

to them see what they have to say.

Liz Wiseman wrote a book called Rookie
Smarts, where she talks about how

powerful it is for someone to be a rookie,
which means that you're not, not bound

by the things that, that already are
happening there because you don't know.

I was talking to someone yesterday
who was in the business world

and he became a writer and let me
see if I just took his this note.

He said it's often better to come
from an outsider's perspective

because you don't fall into the.

Assumptions and all the things
that are built into that already.

And you can be critical without
being derogatory or dismissive,

but you're critical because you're
new and you don't understand it.

And that's a great opportunity for new
teachers to be involved in the curriculum

design process, the day they start.

Emily Makelky: I agree with that.

I do wanna push back just a little.

Jethro D. Jones: Oh, good.

Le

Emily Makelky: Yeah.

Jethro D. Jones: it.

Bring it on,

Emily Makelky: Bring it on.

No.

Really what I wanna push back on is.

there, at least in our curriculum
development process, we spent about

eight days with this committee of
teachers, kindergarten, pre-K if you

have it through, through 12th grade.

Talking about the vertical alignment
piece, what is everybody, what is

their true focus of what's going on?

And a lot of times when you have
a new teacher come in, and I don't

necessarily mean like a brand new
teacher, straight outta school, but

a teacher maybe from another school
district that taught something different

or taught something, and is just
comfortable in what they're used to.

I do wanna caution you not to just
say, yep, you can go ahead and change

that because it's what you're used
to, but instead, let's talk about.

At, even if you have to pull that
committee back in and say, Hey,

these are the conversations that we
had and this is why we, wrote it and

put it together the way that it is.

So, I'm not saying no to what you
said by any means because I think

there's so much validity in that.

But also there is validity to that
whole process of having the full K

12 team together, talking through
who owns what, if that makes sense.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

I appreciate that because what
I was thinking was a brand

new OUTTA college teacher.

Emily Makelky: Sure.

Jethro D. Jones: in the classroom.

That's what I was

Emily Makelky: Gotcha.

Okay.

Jethro D. Jones: because there is a
difference between someone coming in with

10 years experience new to a district.

and here's the other thing, in
education, we act like nobody

ever leaves and nobody ever

Emily Makelky: All right.

Jethro D. Jones: is it's rare to not
have someone new in your building

at a school level every single

year.

And so change is actually constant.

And when I was principal of a school in.

Fairbanks.

We had, it was a seven, eight middle
school, and a third of our stu or half

of our students were military affiliated.

So every year, a third of them moved

Emily Makelky: Sure.

Jethro D. Jones: knew moved in.

So every year we had about two
thirds of our student body that

was brand new to our school.

Emily Makelky: Wow.

Jethro D. Jones: that.

We had new teachers.

We had, teachers who were military
associated, who left also.

And what I loved about that was that
we didn't have to hold onto these old

things because a third of the kids might
actually remember that was going on.

Emily Makelky: Yep.

Jethro D. Jones: And so it
was really easy to say, oh.

I got on one of my counselors
about this one time.

She said, she was like, we used to do it
like this, and now we do it like this.

And I was like, why
would you even say that?

You don't need to say, we used to do it
this way, because it's not a change for

them because everything is new to them.

Emily Makelky: Yep.

Jethro D. Jones: just
explain it how it works.

Right now, and it

Emily Makelky: Yep.

Jethro D. Jones: matter how it used
to work, we can change things every

year very easily because of this
unique situation that we're in.

back to my original point, we're always
changing and so we need to have plans for

when we do change and when somebody leaves
and somebody comes in away to keep the

continuity that we think is important.

There when teachers change, leadership
changes, students change, all those

things change, and we need to have some
way to make sure that the things we

think are important are still continuing.

Even with those changes.

Emily Makelky: Yep.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And thinking from the, perhaps
principle perspective on, on this,

I really think it's important to,
I. make sure that the culture, or

maybe it's the climate, I can Yeah.

Get those two mixed up a little bit.

Jethro D. Jones: all right.

we'll call it culture,

Emily Makelky: okay.

Jethro D. Jones: what you're

Emily Makelky: Okay.

Jethro D. Jones: ahead.

Emily Makelky: basically
that it's okay to, mess up.

It's okay to try something out.

You are not expected to be.

I don't know the
authority in your content.

And I'm, now I'm speaking from the
high school perspective because I find

that at the elementary, teachers are
very comfortable just trying things,

collaborating, messing up like that is
very normal, but at the high school level,

it doesn't tend to be, I, feel like high
school teachers tend to be very defensive

and very resistant to, to change.

And so making sure that.

That they know they're, not gonna be
in trouble because they screwed up.

Or because they wanted to
try it and it didn't work.

I don't know.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Emily Makelky: yeah.

I don't know

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

one, one of the issues with
that is that high school

and middle school teachers
to an extent also.

focused on the content area that
they're teaching because that's

what they spend the most time

Emily Makelky: yep,

Jethro D. Jones: They, have kids cycle
through their classroom 45, 55, 90 minutes

a day, and, but they are focusing on their
content all the time and that, that is one

of the challenges that we face is that.

they put more emphasis on the
content than they do on the students.

And they need to remember that
they're teaching students,

they're not teaching content.

that is a, difficult thing to, to adjust
your perspective on, especially when

you've been in this system for your
whole career of this is what it's like.

I've said this many times on the
podcast, so people who listen

regularly, this is just one of
my constant refrains, in Russian.

The way that you say
that you are a teacher.

It is impossible to say, I teach math, or
I teach English, or I teach first grade.

You say, I teach students to that
math, and basically the way that it

translates is I take students to the
content area and that is a much different

approach than how we talk about.

Teaching in the United States,
we teach English to students, and

the reality is that really you are
taking those students to the content.

And if you think about it like that,
it changes your perspective and

makes you think about it differently.

And that's one of the powerful things
that, that I, when I learned Russian,

I was like, wow, this is deep.

And there's real depth to this
understanding of what it means to teach

that you're not teaching a content,
you're teaching students, and the

focus should be on those students.

But it's important to know what you're
doing with this content, but it's always

gotta be secondary to the students.

And I know not everybody agrees
with me on that, but that is a,

hard line in the sand that I draw.

Emily Makelky: I do
agree with you on that.

And, part of the work that we do,
is what we help school districts

develop a curriculum coordinating
council is what we call it.

But it's, this council that oversees
all of teaching and learning.

Very similar to a guiding
coalition within PLCs.

Except ours, would be district,
it would be district wide

and not just school based.

but one of the conversations that
I always had, as a consultant with

this group is really just, talking
about, oh gosh, what is it Maslow's?

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Emily Makelky: Y

Jethro D. Jones: hierarchy of

Emily Makelky: Thank you.

Yes.

So, really focusing on
that with your students.

If they aren't getting food at
ho, if they're hungry all the

time, they're not gonna learn.

Okay.

It doesn't matter what, you're trying
to teach 'em, they're not gonna learn.

And building relationships, I know
that was my husband's big thing.

Making sure to build
relationships with those students.

If your student does not feel comfortable
and safe, or feel like they have a

relationship with their teachers.

They're not gonna learn.

so yes.

we focus on the curriculum piece and
what is it that you're supposed to be

teaching, but you can't even really get
to that until you make sure that you've

got those other foundational pieces
set up, and really functioning well.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

absolutely.

So let's talk a little bit
about the principal's role

Emily Makelky: Yeah,

Jethro D. Jones: in doing

Emily Makelky: sure.

Jethro D. Jones: we've talked a lot about
district-wide stuff, but the, principal

really should be, a lot of people
say the instructional leader, you're

probably gonna say the curriculum leader.

what does that mean for
the role of the principal?

Emily Makelky: I would say that
all of this work lives or dies

with the principle so often.

We'll be working with a committee
that includes teachers from, various

schools within the, district, various,
grade levels within the district.

And they'll raise their hand and
say, Hey, this is awesome work.

I love what we put together,
but how are teachers gonna

be held accountable to this?

Because if principals don't truly
understand this work, then they're not

going to make sure that the expectation
and hold their teachers accountable.

To teach again.

So if that's the case, then it dies.

But, but if.

As a principal, if you can
participate in, the, process, I

think that is, is just enormous.

and really, I don't mean come to the
meetings and sit in the back of the

conference room and still be on your email
checking your phone texting like that

really, it almost defeats the purpose.

it, would almost be better
if you weren't there.

Because then teachers can see that
you really don't care about it.

So if you are able to, and I
know how busy principals are,

Jethro D. Jones: but it's still
a cop out if you say you're too

busy what you focus on.

Emily Makelky: I.

Jethro D. Jones: that, that excuse doesn't
fly to anybody listening to this show.

Emily Makelky: So if you can
block off on your calendar, the

curriculum development dates.

And, I would also say, and actually this
came from my father-in-law who I think

has also been on your podcast, Jeff

And he suggested.

Select a content area.

So if you were a social studies
teacher, if that's where you feel

more, most comfortable, then sit
on the social studies subject area

committee and participate as a teacher.

Would as a full committee member
participate in the process in developing

this so that when you go back to your,
school and to your teachers, you can

say, this is the work that we did.

This is how we did it.

This is why, which is the biggest
piece you've really gotta.

Gotta, hammer in your why, do we do it?

And then why is it so important
to hold your teachers accountable?

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Yeah.

This is good.

one of the things that you said.

disagrees with the point you
just made, is the, teachers.

The teachers are the professionals,
and yet the principal needs

to be at the meetings.

And, this is an area where, where
would diverge a little bit and I

would say, it's essential for the
principal to know what's going on.

But I wouldn't say that the principal
has to be at those meetings necessarily,

but I'm open to discussing this.

And so how do you balance that?

teachers are professionals and should
be able to make these decisions

with the principal needs to be there
and engaged in it, like really?

The principal, in my opinion,
should probably take a step back

and say, you're the professionals.

I'm gonna support you and I don't
have to be at those meetings

because you know how to do this.

how do you reconcile that?

What are your thoughts

Emily Makelky: Yeah, I, suppose
that, that, what I mean is that

the principal should participate,
but not in, an evaluative way.

So the principal should not be there
saying, or, judging their teachers.

Instead they should be their peer.

And discussing and working through why
is this happening Now, if there are

principals that are going to go and
judge their teachers and say, Nope,

you, need to be teaching this, then
perhaps they should not be sitting

on those subject area committees.

But if you're able, as a principal,
if you're able to put yourself

back into your teacher role.

And discuss and talk through.

'cause that's the point of this work.

When we work with school districts,
we, say it'll take eight days,

throughout the school year or
perhaps, over the summer or something.

But, there's a lot of discussions
that happen about what is it,

what skills, what content.

That we should be teaching.

And so I think that if a principal comes
in and is able to just participate, in

those conversations to determine that, I
think it's healthy and I think it's okay.

And I think it will help
improve that, piece.

Moving forward within your school
district, and they can explain,

to, teachers that did not sit on
those committees, what happened,

why is it not, why is this change
not a scary change, perhaps?

How can we embrace this?

Yeah, and I think I'm getting ahead
of myself, but, thinking about, the

principle as a, an instructional.

Leader, being able to pro provide
feedback to, your teachers when you do

a walkthrough and you fully understand
curriculum and how it was developed, what

the learning tar targets are, and then
you do a walkthrough with your teachers

and you can say, Hey, I. I, I saw by
your pacing guide, and your curriculum,

that this is the learning target.

You were supposed to be teaching
or you were expecting to teach.

I didn't see any evidence of it.

visually it's nowhere, whatever.

and I couldn't hear the alignment,
of your instructional strategies

to the curricular target.

you can have kind of some
meaningful conversations and I'm

pretty sure that was a tangent.

I apologize.

Let's write it back in.

Jethro D. Jones: okay.

It's all good.

so to that piece about the instructional
leader, I, I think is important also,

but I think we misunderstand what
that means and, and a lot of times we

give the impression that the principle
is the main expert and the one who.

Who knows more than anybody else.

And I don't think that is either necessary
or wise, because principals are managing

this big, huge system and they're,
setting the vision, they're guiding

it, and they're setting up the school
for success and all this kind of stuff.

for them to be the.

The final answer on everybody's skill
and proficiency at teaching is a little

bit silly to be honest, because they.

I don't believe that is
their most essential role.

I think those other things I described
of designing the school, which I talk

about in my books of you have a just a
warm body who's just there in the school.

You have a manager and that person just
makes sure that things don't go wrong.

And then you have a leader who like
sets a vision and makes plans and does

a good job as the instructional leader.

But then you have a designer
who actively designs and sets

up the school for success.

And if the designer is the one who's
doing everything, it's not going to work.

they, the idea of a one act or a
one person play exist where that

person is the director and the sole
actor, and they play all the parts.

does exist, it's a lot better when
there's a director and a whole bunch

of actors who are playing different
roles and that's the thing that

actually draws people to, movies and
shows and events and things like that.

the other analogy that we'd like
to draw is with sports that.

there's a coach and the coach is not out
on the field playing and the coach can't

and shouldn't be out on the field playing.

And, a great coach right now is
Andy Reed who played football in

college, but then became a coach
and didn't play in the NFL and yet.

He's one of the most successful coaches
out there, and so we have to understand

that your role is different and you're
not a teacher anymore, and you have

to let those decisions be made and
let other people do those things.

And this is still an idea that
I'm working through, but there's

something there about your job is
that much different from a teacher.

You can't, still be doing the
teacher things and giving feedback

about curriculum alignment is one
of those things, in my opinion,

that principals need to let go of.

And teachers need to hold themselves and
each other more accountable than relying

on the principal to be the one to do that.

And this is the first time
I'm saying this out loud.

How does that jive with

Emily Makelky: I think,

Jethro D. Jones: poke

Emily Makelky: no, I
actually really love it.

I'm putting, I'm gonna put
my teacher hat back on.

I remember, in my, I don't know, I don't
know if it was like my interim evaluation

or summative or something like that,
but I remember, and this is going back

15 years or so, but still, it, was a
rubric situation where I was evaluated

on, I don't know, 150 different things.

And I was docked on.

Something about my instruction,
and I asked my principal,

I said, okay, that's great.

I'm happy to work on that.

Can you gimme an example of
what that might look like?

And he said, no, I can't.

And I was like, okay.

And I don't blame him at all for that.

But it is, it's difficult
when you're being evaluated

Jethro D. Jones: exactly.

Emily Makelky: they don't.

They can't, they can't go there.

they, their brains can't, my
principal couldn't go there

and that is completely fine.

I am not criticizing him one bit.

It's more that evaluation piece where I
was being evaluated, and I was frustrated.

So I actually do really like that idea of,
hey, let's figure out what our roles are.

And we can let go of some of those things.

I think that's completely fine.

But I do, I, am gonna push back a
little bit that I do strongly feel

like the principal does need to fully
understand what curriculum is and why

it's the expectation, and then how
to hold your teachers accountable and

make sure that they are, using it.

We just have a lot of school
districts that we work with.

Where, excuse me.

When we roll out the new curriculum,
there are teachers that say,

yeah, I'm just not gonna do that.

I'm just not doing that.

And it's not because of it,
it's not because they're good

teachers and feel like it's wrong.

It's because they don't wanna change.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Emily Makelky: and I think that's, that is
perhaps a, I don't know if that's a rule

of a principle, but, I don't think, yeah.

Sorry.

you go.

Jethro D. Jones: That, that's
exactly what I'm talking about.

That is not a instructional
leadership problem.

I. is a culture problem and a designer
of a school problem that if somebody is

unwilling to change, that is the role of
the principal to either get them outta

the school or put them in a position
where they don't have to change or

do something make it so that they are
aligned with the vision of the school.

And if you're not, you really
shouldn't be at that school.

And that's just all there is to it.

And so then, that brings up all these
other questions that we're not gonna get

Emily Makelky: Sure.

Jethro D. Jones: a new principal comes
in and they're gonna be there for three

years and this teacher's been there for
20 and is gonna stay for another 10.

Like those are things that districts
really need to evaluate when they move

people and when they hire people, and
when they set principals up for failure or

success and what those things look like.

And the plan really should
be like, this is your role.

if we just need a warm body.

Then the principal should not be making
instructional leadership decisions

because they're just there to pass the

Emily Makelky: Sure.

Jethro D. Jones: If they're being moved
to that school because there was a problem

at another school, but they can't fire
'em, for example, then that's on the

district and they should not expect,
and that principal should not expect

to be an instructional leader at that
school because, and that stuff happens.

We like to talk about, pretend
like it doesn't, but it sure

Emily Makelky: Oh man.

Jethro D. Jones: That, specific
instance, somebody not being

willing to change, that is not an
instructional leadership problem.

That is a vision, that is a culture
that is a school designer problem that

principals need to own and take on.

But that has nothing to
do with the curriculum.

That is just hinge point
That is just what's the word?

Focal point.

The thing that, that is causing the
teacher to show their unwillingness

Emily Makelky: Yeah.

Jethro D. Jones: to buy into the
vision of the district and the school

Emily Makelky: Yeah.

Jethro D. Jones: and that
is what the real problem is.

But that has nothing to do
with curriculum or instruction.

That just happens to be the
spark that's sliding that bigger

Emily Makelky: Yep.

I agree.

Jethro D. Jones: this,
is a good discussion.

I'm glad we're having this.

Emily Makelky: I wish listeners
could see you right now.

You're fired up.

Jethro D. Jones: I am, I'm, I feel that
I'm getting more fired up as time goes

on because I've been doing this thing
for 10 year, more than 10 years, we keep

coming back to the same conversations
and I can only imagine how someone

like Todd Whitaker feels who's been
doing this way longer than I have.

And the same things keep coming up,
but we gotta change the dynamic for

things to really, to be different.

And, I think.

That being an instructional leader is
great, but here's, the thing that I

really want to get to, and I know we're
not gonna have time to get into all

this, but my approach to curriculum is
much different than a lot of people's.

And when we stopped focusing on
saying, this is what we want the kids

to learn, and we started focusing on.

How do we make sure that kids are
enrolled, which means they're choosing

to be part of their learning and
they're somewhat in control of their

own learning that it's not all coming
from the adults in the building.

Our students just blew our expectations
out of the water all across the board.

The punk kids, the kids with disabilities,
the gifted kids, every single kid more.

we expected them to, as
we changed that approach.

So focus away from curriculum and
focusing on actually engaging the kids

in what they're doing, that flipped
a switch and kids just blew up.

Like their learning just went
out of it just went crazy.

so my fear is that we're starting in
the wrong place with all this stuff.

And I probably should have started
the conversation with this,

but next time we can talk

Emily Makelky: Yeah,

Jethro D. Jones: but that's
really an issue that I see in

our education system is that.

When we, force it, which is what we
do when we have scope and sequences

and we have timelines of when kids
should or when teachers should teach

what and pacing and all that, we
are saying, this is how and when.

Kids, need to learn these things.

And the reality is, that learning is such
an individual thing and it is so personal

to every single person that yes, you
can make it happen this way, but it is.

You talked about the bare minimum
with the standards, right?

This is really the bare
minimum of instruction and,

the focus is on instruction.

The focus is not on learning, and there's
a big difference between those two.

I just touched the tip of the iceberg.

What do you have to

Emily Makelky: I was just gonna,
I think I would just say is there

a way to combine the two thoughts?

I agree 100% that kids all learn.

Differently at different times.

And, I have a 4-year-old and a 6-year-old,
and looking at their classmates, it's

very clear that kids learn in different
ways and at different times, and I

really hate the idea of kids being
penalized because they don't have it yet.

They haven't gotten it yet.

And so how do we, combine the two ideas?

And think about, but what is it
that they really do need to learn?

And maybe it's not at the end of
kindergarten, they must learn this, or the

end of first grade they must learn this.

But by the time they leave our schools,
they must know these things if they're

gonna be successful in the real world.

I do really think that there are some
skills, and, there's content that really.

The majority of kids should know.

And I don't think that's calculus, I don't
think that's, those higher level things.

But I do think that there are just things
that our kids need to know to be good,

good humans and effective, individuals.

And so how do we make sure
that they do get those things?

How do we focus on those things
in ways that allow for, their,

own engagement and their own.

Kind of processing, to, to, make
sure that they're learning those.

I think that those are conversations
kind of district wide, to have

or schoolwide or, whatever.

But I, do love the idea.

I agree wholeheartedly that, that
education does need to, change.

And I, do think that.

I don't know.

What we, what I've struggled with
quite a bit is when we try to make

that change, there's so much pushback.

From all stake, from so many
stakeholders, not all stakeholders, but

from so many stakeholders that people
suck back in and say, okay, never.

Nevermind.

Let's not rock the boat.

Let's continue with what we are doing.

When really, I feel like
there's just a hump.

And if you move past that and start
seeing like, you did, when you start

seeing success, then roll with that
success and let's make it happen.

But instead, I feel like a lot of times
we get afraid and say, woo, nevermind.

I'm worried about my job, for instance,
I'm worried about, whatever else.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah,
it's, and it's, yeah.

There's so much to unpack there.

But I will say this.

Once you get past the hump,
you're absolutely right.

Things change.

Parents are like, my kid's never
been this happy with school

Emily Makelky: Yep.

Jethro D. Jones: and whatever
you're doing, I want you to keep

Emily Makelky: Yep.

Jethro D. Jones: it.

That, that is powerful because that's real
and that is something that parents feel.

And when kids feel that way school, it
affects other parts of their life also.

And so they might not be as crabby as
teenagers with their parents when they're

having good days at school, but when
they've got the thumb pushing down on

Emily Makelky: Yep.

Jethro D. Jones: and then they
go to school and they got the

thumb pushing down on 'em again,
that's, really tough for them.

alright.

This was a good conversation.

I think we're gonna need to talk again.

We didn't even get to ai.

We, didn't even get to
so many things that we.

Could talk about in the

Emily Makelky: Sure.

Jethro D. Jones: And you and I
have been talking for years also,

we should just continue this.

The thing that's so crazy is, I, like I
said, I've been doing this for so long

and still there's so much left to talk

Emily Makelky: Sure.

Jethro D. Jones: there's so,
many great conversations to have.

I, encourage you to connect with Emily.

She, as I mentioned, works for curriculum.

Learn Leadership Institute, and
you can find them@clweb.org.

And, there's a link to that in the show
notes at Transformative Principal dot org.

And Emily's email
address is on there also.

Any, last question I always ask
is, what is one thing that a

principal can do this week to be
a Transformative leader like you?

Emily.

Emily Makelky: I, I, guess I would say.

Something they could do this week is
starting to ask about, and we didn't

even talk about this, but starting to
ask about learning in, in measurability.

Meaning instead of saying, okay,
are your kids understanding what

they're supposed to understand?

Talk about it in, what is it?

How did they show you
that they understand it?

If that makes sense.

We didn't talk about that yet another
time, but, that is a piece of, curriculum

work, making sure that it's measurable.

What does it look like when
a kid understands something?

Jethro D. Jones: Good stuff, man.

You're leaving us with

Emily Makelky: oh, cliffhanger.

Jethro D. Jones: Wait, that's great.

Okay.

Emily, this was awesome.

Thank you so much.

I'm definitely gonna

Emily Makelky: Thank you.

Absolutely.

I'd love to.

Jethro D. Jones: we should probably just
schedule it, once you, after the summer

when you get all, settled in the new year.

We can, we should do that again.

Emily Makelky: you.

That sounds great.

Thank you for having me.