Transformative Principal

jethro_2_04-23-2025_143737: Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading.

I'm your host, Jethro Jones.

You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Welcome to Transformative Principle.

we got a treat for you today.

I am your host, Jethro Jones.

You can find me on all the socials at Jethro Jones, and today I am doing something a little bit different.

A few, about a year and a half ago, my friend Danny Bauer and I decided to write a book called Reject the Premise, and we started it and then it fizzled.

We're not gonna go into all that, but sometimes that happens.

So what we decided to do was to resurrect this idea and.

it as a podcast and then write the book.

So we're gonna riff on some ideas.

In fact, we've already done it.

The first episode went out on Danny's podcast, better Leaders, better Schools.

You can go check it out there.

But today we're gonna talk about the second group.

If you look in the show notes at Transformative Principal dot org, you'll see a link to his.

Uh, podcast.

You can go listen to that and definitely subscribe to it if you haven't.

And then today we're gonna talk about some other topics and we will

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: into those here in just a moment.

So, Danny, uh, how'd it feel after doing our first episode on this reject the premise book?

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah.

Thanks Jethro.

I think it felt good.

It was a lot of fun, you know, riffing with you.

Uh, I titled it do school, different part one, so maybe this is do school, different part two.

It's up to you.

Uh, but I, I figured that way we could stay really organized.

Um, I. Yeah, but the thing is right, you, you, you do work.

And the time, the time wasn't right and the approach didn't feel necessarily right.

And uh, kudos to us for wanting to like, give it some space, let it breathe and, and walk away.

I think a lot of, a lot of leaders make a mistake when they get to that point and they're not feeling right in rhythm or just aligned or with in flow, right?

And what do they do?

They work harder.

And they put in more hours.

That's stupid.

Don't do that.

And so we said we give up, right?

At least for now and maybe we'll come back.

Uh, and then we had a chat and now we're here back.

This feels easy.

So, you know, there's leadership lessons there.

This feels easy to us.

We'll do the riffs and then we'll take our riffs and turn that into a, a book and edit it up, organize it nicely.

Uh, but yeah, it feels great.

So thanks for asking.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: and, and this is, this is really key that I want to reiterate that we could have tried to force it and a lot of times you have to force things.

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Other times you need to be in flow.

And it's okay and smart to figure out when the right thing is to do what, you know, like when I, when I don't want to go to the gym, I need to force it and go to the gym because that's gonna pay dividends later on down the road.

Us forcing ourselves to write this book, I do not think would've paid dividends and would not have been the right choice.

So we gave it some space and just said, Hey, we're not gonna do it.

And that's okay.

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: And that's, that's what you gotta decide.

And there's not like a, a formula where you can say, here's the exact right way to do it.

Every single time.

You gotta be able to say this moment, what's the right thing to do for where we're at and what we're trying to do?

And, and that applies to anything that you're trying to lead.

And you gotta see where your people are at and what they're capable of and, and all that.

So, first one that we're gonna get into today.

Is, uh, this, this idea of if you don't like someone, then move them out.

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: um, we, we recently published a, uh, satirical article about a, about a principal who came into a new school.

Things weren't going well, so she fire, she wants to fire the custodian.

I'm bringing this up because, uh, I've seen this playbook so many times and the custodian is the one.

Who gets the short end of the stick

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: uh, 'cause they're an easy target.

They don't have the same protections that teachers do.

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Right.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: a principal who's really struggling in a new situation will go in and get rid of the, get rid of the, the custodian.

just because she's struggling somewhere else.

And,

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: ah, it's tragic when it happens.

And in the principles that I've coached, I've seen this happen numerous times.

Uh, also with the principal that I worked with and with other principals that I've seen.

And it's just really tragic.

So the, the premise is if you don't like 'em, get rid of 'em, uh, or move them.

And that's been been the way that people have, have acted in the past.

Um.

That's what we reject and we say find a place for the people to help them achieve their goals and be in the best place possible for them.

What would you add there?

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Well first, you know, you're referencing, uh, an article on the Substack, so that's ruckus makers.substack.com if you wanna check that out.

Um, you know, and it is sad that, that, that people get moved out just because folks don't know how to lead.

Uh, they don't like whatever.

Uh, you know, my buddy Gene Park, who leads in elementary school, he and the custodian go to different classrooms and sing Happy Birthday.

To the kids.

Right.

And, uh, you know, the, the satirical article was actually, um, based on real life.

We won't mention where and when and all that kind of stuff, but that's the thing.

A satire often has a seed of truth there, which makes it sting that much more.

And you know, when you have a custodian who's great at developing relationships with kids and that kind of thing.

What are you doing trying to move them out?

This makes zero sense, right?

Uh, and I think in the article we had 'em, you know, getting written up for like talking to kids or just ridiculous stuff.

But this happens, you know, another satirical article we had, I. Um, also is about the Secretary of Education announcing Russell Ed.

Right.

Uh, 'cause we all like to put Ed at the end 'cause it's like, you know, really, really unique and creative.

Um, but with, uh, Russell Ed, there's last principal standing evaluations.

Right.

Uh, replacing teacher of the year awards with championship belts and, you know, it's just, it's absolutely outrageous.

Right.

Um, but that's the thing.

There's the Jim Collins idea.

People have in their minds, right?

They read, I don't know if it was good to great, great to great to greater, great to the best or whatever.

Like, there's a lot of those books.

Uh, and, and it is a good idea, you know, do people have a seat on the bus and are they on the right seat?

Right?

And I think the knee jerk reaction for play it safe principles is, oh, this person doesn't necessarily believe everything or.

Have the same point of view, and so we gotta, they're, they're not on the right seat and they're not on the right bus.

We're moving 'em out.

I think the big idea that we, we wanna share, at least from my perspective, is that, pause for a second, right?

Uh, try to understand where these people are coming from.

Obviously, if they're doing bad things, you know, with, with students or they're completely ineffective as a teacher, let's say.

That's one thing.

Um, but if they're just questioning and not on board with the vision just yet, slow your role because critics can be cheerleaders and enemies can be evangelists.

If you approach them with curiosity and empathy.

Listen to what they have to say.

They're giving you the roadmap for professional development.

And if you take them seriously, a few things are gonna happen.

One.

They're gonna be shocked.

They're not gonna believe that, oh my gosh, this principal actually listens to me.

Right?

'cause they probably have gone through their career just being shut down.

Secondly, when you develop training around valid concerns, not all of 'em might be valid, but some will be.

Uh, and they become a believer.

Everybody else is gonna fall in line, right?

You're gonna pick up a, a good percentage of your staff.

That already wasn't the early adopters.

So I think those are some big ideas when it comes to, uh, moving people out because slow down, like you just got there.

Let's really think about what they're saying and see if we could, uh, collaboratively built.

So we're not saying don't fire or don't move out.

Just don't do it so fast.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Well, and the other part is don't write someone off also,

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: and so we may not actually take any action.

But we may write them off in our heads too quickly, and we may say, this person's never gonna get on board.

They're not gonna do it.

Whatever.

And, and I, I had a teacher at one of my schools who.

Who seemed to be against everything that we were doing, and she was constantly saying, this isn't gonna work.

This isn't gonna work.

And because I had learned previously that I don't need to convince her and that I don't have to change her, I need to evaluate, is she, is she moving in the same or she facing the same direction?

Or is she, is she rowing the boat in the opposite direction?

That's what I need to determine.

She wasn't doing those things, so I let her do her thing.

I let her ask questions.

I let her poke holes in, in what we were trying to do.

And what she actually did was she helped us figure out.

The problems that we had and helped us identify weaknesses that we didn't understand otherwise, because we were totally bought into the vision she was facing the same way.

She wasn't antagonistic, but she was just like, you, you gotta prove it to me.

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: not, I'm not sold on this yet.

And so by, by us respecting that, by us understanding that.

We, we allowed her to be herself and express herself and, and be able to, to do the things she needed to.

Now, I gotta share this one story because it's one of my favorite stories ever.

We had a custodian, this school, where the principal tried to get rid of him.

And he was just terrible with names.

And the culture in our district was, you need to know everybody's name.

And for him with 600 kids in the school, it was just too much.

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: principal or the custodian.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: the custodian,

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Okay.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: so he was just overwhelmed

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: and it was one of those things where it, looking at his behavior and his personality.

see why the, the principal wanted to go after him, but what he did every day at lunch was he would talk to every single kid in the lunch line, and he would do two things.

One, he'd call 'em all Steve, and they would call him Steve.

Steve wasn't his name, but he called them Steve, and they called him Steve because that was his way of dealing with not knowing kids' names.

But then what he would do is he would quiz the kids on their lunch numbers.

And so he'd get them to memorize their lunch numbers, and he'd take their little card from 'em the first couple weeks of school and he'd say, all right, what's your number?

And then they'd work through it.

This guy was so supportive and had such a good heart, but because of whatever personality issue or flaws he had, the principal wanted to get rid of him, but he was there every day.

Building relationships with kids, helping them out, and those are the kinds of things that we need to really be focusing on.

Uh, yeah, he wasn't perfect.

Guess what?

Nobody is.

And so rather than writing him off, we needed to recognize what he was doing.

That was great.

I. And, and bring that back.

And the problem is we focus too much on personalities or their disposition and we don't do the things that are actually going to help us grow and, and get better as a whole team.

Now I couldn't actually, I didn't write, I didn't draw anything for this one.

Did you draw something for this one on?

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: I couldn't find cards for this one.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Oh,

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah,

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Well

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: have 'em for everyone else.

I went through the whole stack.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Oh, how funny.

Well, there you go.

Sometimes that happens and, uh, I, that's gonna happen for me for sure.

Last time I didn't have a card for, for what we had talked about, so.

Anything else you wanna add to that one?

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: You know, I think you were talking about kind of like looking at people, uh, through a strength based lens versus, uh, what they lack, you know, and their weaknesses.

And here's the guy getting kids to memorize, uh, lunch numbers, which I'm sure is helpful getting 'em through the lunch line and all this kind of stuff.

Um, and maybe he doesn't, uh, know all the kids' names, but I think this is where like.

You know, in, in, in, uh, industry like education, you gotta question and think about the system and do school different because obviously for a teacher who's with their students 150, let's say five classes of 30 or whatever, you know, every day, they should know their kids' names.

And I was working with a campus where there was a teacher who didn't know the student's names.

Now I think that is quite a bit, uh, more challenging for a custodian who only, you know, has passing by type of relationships unless they're super, super intentional and in all 600, like, I don't know.

I would, I would question that a bit, but my point is he was adding value and it sounds like he was working hard.

And guess what?

Something that, uh, a lot of schools struggle with.

He was a custodian who was.

Showing up, right?

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Yeah.

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Like, I've been to schools, it's, oh, yep.

They're not here.

You know, and there's turnover and there's chaos.

And this, you, you wanna clean campus.

So because the, the guy's here every day and helping kids know their numbers, uh, but he doesn't know all their names.

You're gonna get rid of 'em.

That's stupid, right?

Today's the day where I tell the ruckus maker listening that you're stupid if you're doing this stuff.

So I'm, I'm happy to do that and be direct.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Yeah.

How many, how many people listening are like, I had to do something custodial related this week because my custodial wasn't

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Right, right.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: people showing up is a, is a huge thing

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: sure.

Um, alright, so that leads us to the next one, uh, which is feedback sandwiches don't work

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: I have cards.

I have cards for this one.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Excellent.

Um, uh, and that our, our, our new, our, that's the premise is give feedback, sandwiches.

And the, the, the new premise that we're suggesting is be inquisitive.

Uh, you may have something different there, but, uh, but the thing about this one that, that I love is, uh, we don't call a ham sandwich, a bread sandwich.

And, uh, we, we talk about the meat and.

The meat on the inside of a feedback sandwich is crap, and so.

It's, it's a crap sandwich, basically, that's what it should be called, not a feedback sandwich.

Because what you're trying to do is, is do something fluffy and say, Hey, here's a compliment, here's a criticism, here's a compliment that makes everybody feel like crap, and it just doesn't

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Right.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: it's a crap sandwich, not a feedback sandwich.

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: anything other than that is manipulative and it's disgusting and it doesn't work.

And people see right through it.

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: So you're going to work and, and you're getting dressed and you put on your depends.

And then you get to work and, and you drop just a big steaming, you know what in your pants, that's what you're doing with a feedback sandwich.

So today's the day to offend people, I guess, but it's, it, it's research shows that it, that it doesn't work, right.

Feedback, sandwiches, I don't know.

Well, I do know why education.

The best thing about educators is that they have a big heart, and the worst thing about educators is sometimes that they have a big heart.

And so the feedback sandwiches, because you don't wanna hurt people's feelings.

So if I start nice and get to the truth.

The way people really have to improve and then end on a nice thing, we tell ourselves a story that it'll all be okay, and that's not true.

It feels disingenuous and it's childish, and you're ruining trust in that moment.

So unless you want to ruin trust, don't use a feedback sandwich, right?

If you want to build trust, be.

What I, what I would say is, uh, radically candid.

This comes from a book by Kim Scott.

Um, we read that in, in the Masterminds we have, and it's Radical Candor's an incredible book.

She has a grid, right?

And the two axes are just about, uh, how much you care, right?

And how direct you are.

And the sweet spot is being very caring and very direct, you know, uh.

If you in, you know, I'll just, I'll, I'll recommend to the, the person, uh, listening, you know, check out the graph, Google it.

Just Kim Scott in Radical Candor and you can see what the other quadrants are.

Right.

I'm just, um, highlighting it right now, uh, for sake of time, but, you know, we'll just say, I'll do one more.

Right.

If you're very direct, but you lack the empathy and the care.

You're a jerk.

And we know people like that.

And then there's, right, if you, if you are not direct and you don't care, that's another thing.

And if you have high care, this is I think a dangerous spot for a lot of school leaders.

High care.

But you're not direct.

That's something else.

So again, do you want trust?

If you want trust, have high care, high directness.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: the other part about that is when, when you, when you just criticize.

Then you're also not building trust, when you're like, Hey, here's the reality of the situation and because I care about you enough, I'm going to, you know, tell you the truth.

other part of that is you feel like you can only say so many negative things to someone, but have a high level of care, it doesn't matter how many level, how many negative things you say to people, you.

You show that care in other ways and by being direct also, and, and it's not as hard as we think it is.

And a lot of times we, we do this thing where we think, oh, I, I gotta choose the one thing that they have to work on.

Or I gotta, gotta really focus and like, choose the most important thing.

And my strategy on that is express gratitude And, and when you're expressing gratitude, that's one of the ways that you show that you have high care.

And so if you, if you do that, then you're going to be all right in expressing these things.

And the real challenge that people face is they're like, I, I just need to.

to tell them what they need to do to improve.

Uh, but it's not, it's not only that, you also need to recognize where they're being successful,

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: don't do that.

You don't recognize where they're being successful as a way to tell them where they're struggling, because that just doesn't work.

And people see right through that all the time.

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Another way to deal with this is to ask a lot of questions.

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm-hmm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Be inquisitive and ask what's going on?

Why are they making those choices?

Try to understand first before you get your point across, because the reality is they may have a very good reason for acting the way that they acted.

And it may make sense if you saw the whole picture, because we don't see the whole picture, and we need to understand the bigger picture before we start saying, this is how it has to be done.

And most of the time probably.

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: They know before we know when they screwed up and made a mistake.

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Well, I got a quote from Radical Candor.

Uh, the best way to keep superstars happy is to challenge them and make sure they are constantly learning.

And so that's something, you know, to, to, to think about.

Uh, and you do that by being direct and showing that you care.

And the other, uh, just encouragement for the listener.

Act as if everyone's a superstar.

Call them into their greatest, right?

And so again, if you, if you're coming from a place of, uh.

Strength-based and, and also calling them into something even greater.

I, I believe people are gonna respond to that, so.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Yeah, because people want

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: They want to be part of it and they want to, to add value and be productive and do things that matter.

And my visual for this one was a, uh.

Two people stand there talking to each other with GQ and arrows going towards each other.

Now, to be honest, I don't remember what the GQ was for.

It was either good question or gratitude, and then question or maybe goal oriented question.

Honestly, I don't remember.

So it wasn't that good of a drawing.

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah, my mine is just showing, you know, you think that the bad, right?

Happy face, sad face, happy face.

It actually equals a, a sad face in the end.

So you, you see the arrow plus the heart equals happy.

Um, you think about any leader you work for.

They, they were radically candid, right?

They, they weren't.

Um, well, Kim calls it ruinous empathy.

So when you're really kind, but you're not direct, you're doing the feedback sandwich.

It's, she calls it ruinous empathy.

And like I said to the listener, right, uh, people will not trust you.

So the people that you remember, those coaches and mentors and leaders, um, they had a way of seeing what's great, but also calling you to a higher, you know, higher level.

So do that, and you'll be all right.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Yeah.

Very good.

Uh, now it's time for the one that, um, we have literally spent.

Uh, 20 years between the two of us talking about, um, and that is, uh, the, the premise that we're rejecting is operate in isolation,

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: what we're saying is develop a network of support.

Why don't you start out on this one?

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah, well, back when I started the podcast, September, um, 20 15, 1 of my early guests, maybe top 20, I'm surprised he came on the show because it was so early back then.

And he was, you know, a big author, but his name's, uh, Greg Satcha, and he wrote a book called the uh, um.

The enemies of excellence.

And to him there were 10 enemies, but the number one enemy was isolation.

Right?

And you don't, you know, this isn't rocket science.

If you think about school leadership, you think about, uh, anything that you, you care about, you think about your relationships, the more withdrawn and independent right, and isolated you are probably the worst off.

You know, we're, we're built for community, we're built for relationships.

Um, and you can't.

You can't see the spinach in your own teeth.

People need to be able to call that out.

Uh, and so, you know, in the, in the spaces that Jethro and I lead, there's great value connecting with other leaders.

Uh, 'cause you get that kind of support.

They're able to freely share resources, question your thinking, da, da, da.

But on the subject of thinking, you get to see how other leaders think too, which is an incredible value.

Uh, and you just, you grow light years, you grow exponentially.

When you surround yourself with other people, it was, um, Jim Rohn, the motivational speaker, right?

He says you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with.

And the second I heard that I had to make some changes in my life, right?

And I've never forgotten that quote.

That's a good quote.

If you could hear it a couple of times and remember it a decade later, you know what I mean?

And so.

Thinking about that you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with.

Think about who you surround yourself in a school.

Obviously you have your staff that you're gonna, you're gonna have there.

Um, but the thing is to me, like the ultimate ruckus makers, the A players, you know, top of the game, they don't accept that I am in this system and I'm only gonna.

Benefit and grow, uh, through what they allow me to have or what they give.

Right?

People who are hungry, that are true ruckus makers that wanna do school different, they make it happen, you know?

And so, uh, hopefully within a system, they're supportive and will give you PD opportunities and, uh, allow you to, you know, put resources, um, towards that network.

But even if they're not, you know, you either accept that and woe is me.

You take control of your life and your leadership and you make it happen.

So this is not to say you have to work with me in Jethro.

There's plenty of groups, right?

But the what it is to say is get connected or what are you doing right?

Do not operate.

This job is too hard.

It's too hard.

Get connected.

Have a network that will be candid, right?

And be compassionate and, uh, will level you up.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Yeah, and so I, I started this podcast Transformative principle because my, uh, district I did not think was doing a good enough job teaching me how to be a. A kind of principle that I wanted to be, which was one that transformed schools and so.

I was, I was being taught to be a manager and I wanted

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: a designer of

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: and so I said, I've gotta go find people who are doing the, the work that I want to do and, and connect with them.

then later, uh, started doing the Mastermind and I saw something completely different.

What I saw were these people who were totally alone, who felt like they didn't have support from.

Anybody around them talking to people and the thing that people say the most, 'cause at the end of every mastermind call I ask what was most valuable to you today?

And.

Yeah, pretty much 98% of the time it's been knowing that I'm not alone in

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: So people all over the country, different places, even the world, 'cause we've had some international folks, um,

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: I'm dealing with the exact same things that other people are dealing with and I thought I was all alone.

And like, if you think you're all alone and you're struggling with that, then you gotta go find some support and.

Uh, lots of places you can go, that's for sure.

But find some support so that you're not alone.

And, and the, the picture that I drew for this one, uh, I really like because it's a bunch of interconnected dots and there's a problem dot is connected to a bunch of different things A few connections away.

There are two people saying I can help.

And, and this is what's really powerful, is you've, you've been through things, you've have it, you've had experiences the person that you know directly may not know the answer, but somebody connected to them may know.

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm-hmm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: I was just, last week I was meeting with these two people.

Two different people and they both were working on the same thing and I was like, oh my goodness, you guys don't even know each

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm. Mm-hmm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: the exact same thing.

You guys need to know each other

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Right, right.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: you're not going to be operating in isolation right now.

You are, but you could be doing this together and that is just amazing when when you're talking and sharing what's going on with other people, then they can provide that support that you really need.

To do the work and whatever your job is, it is hard,

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm-hmm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: it's tough to do it on your own.

And so you do need support.

So whatever level you're at, you need to go find that support.

And nobody cares about it as much as you do.

So you gotta be the one to make the choice.

the choice to go get it.

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah.

Feeling all right.

I know that chokes you up when you start talking about,

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: When I get fired up, sometimes I lose, lose my ability to talk.

That was one of those.

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: you know, I reflect on my life and, uh.

Naturally creative, visionary, hard worker, right?

And, and anybody who works in isolation has a lot of great positive qualities.

Like you mentioned, your two friends working on the same thing, but independently.

And when I started joining Masterminds myself, getting coached and that kind of thing, that unlocked new levels of.

Success, let's say.

Uh, and the podcast has hit, you know, a certain level and bestselling books, um, spoken around the world, right to crowds as big as a thousand.

Uh, and if it really experienced some really neat things that have happened personally and professionally, um, and I believe I just avoided a million dollar mistake to be honest.

I won't share the, the entire details, uh, but I was hearing over here.

One idea, right?

And that's just me and somebody talking and kind of isolated.

And then I brought that to the larger network that I have and said, Hey, this is what I'm here and this is the deal in front of me.

What do you think?

And uh.

My mentors right in a coach call, uh, there were about six, eight of us.

They were like, that's a terrible deal.

Don't take it.

And, and what, what?

My one mentor, uh, Christopher Lockhead said, you know, and in business there's missionaries and mercenaries, right?

Missionaries are giving back and they're doing it.

They do it even for no money, right?

Because they're so in love solving the problem.

And there's, and then there's mercenaries, people who just wanna get ahead.

Right.

And make an extra buck and whatever.

And so that was super great feedback.

And then I was able to say, no, I'm not, I'm not doing that one thing.

And I believe it saved at least a million dollars, right?

Not in one swing.

It would've been over time.

But certainly that's, uh, you know, that's what I was looking at.

And it's only because I wasn't isolated making this decision.

Right.

I had a network that I could run it by.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Yeah.

And, and so that's, that's a business decision.

And so the other part of this is that you, you might need different networks for different purposes, right?

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm-hmm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: sometimes some people won't be able to give good insight into a leadership decision versus a personal decision versus a family decision.

And so being able to understand who those.

Those supports are that you go to for different things is also valuable.

Um, and, and I bring that particular piece up because I was asking a group of people for some advice about something and they had no idea.

I was dealing with, they couldn't wrap their heads around it because they weren't the right group to give support in that arena.

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah, good point.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: they, they still gave some support, but they didn't get the big, the whole picture.

And I had to do a lot of additional explaining to get them to see where I was coming from.

And so they made a suggestion and I was like.

Uh, no, that just doesn't work.

And so to be clear, I'll, I'll share it here so that people can understand what I'm talking about.

It was, uh, about getting, um, people to pay for the Mastermind and, and how that works.

And I, and I was talking about it and they're like, well, just do like these, you know, you gotta make this decision today or it's not gonna work.

And I had to explain, look, principals don't make decisions that way because.

They have a district

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm-hmm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: a process to go through.

There's a bureaucratic system in place that has to, you know, meet all these things.

And so, you know, the sales cycle is just really long and they're like.

Well then, then don't sell to 'em.

like, well, that's like who I serve.

And so I can't not sell to them because I'm not trying to help, uh, business leaders who have a budget and can do that.

Just like that.

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm-hmm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: to school principals.

And that's, that's the whole point.

That's that's who I'm trying to serve.

So I have to play within the system that exists, even if that system is not perfect.

And, and the reason why.

That was the wrong group to talk to is that they had no experience selling to schools.

then I talked to somebody who does have experience and he said, oh, well here's how you solve this problem.

And, and he gave me such beautiful insight that was totally aligned with, with what I think and believe.

And it was really, really valuable because he understood the context

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: and understood what, what schools are trying to do and how to help them, that that kind of.

Yeah, talking to the right group really does make a difference.

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah.

Big time.

Good point.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Yeah.

Did you draw a picture for this one?

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Uh, yeah, very similar to IS with the dots, right?

So excellence and you see, you know, a person surrounded by, uh, support.

And then the isolation is just you on an island.

Right.

So, and to me, you know, I talk about you, you said, you know, you could be just a good manager.

And that's the thing.

Play it Safe principles are managers.

They're not leaders.

So, um, sorry, not sorry for saying that.

And, and you're protecting the status quo.

It's hard.

You, you can't lead alone.

You gotta have a network.

Um.

Everything that you've learned has been learned through probably like a binder or a manual or what the system has told you to do.

That's 'cause you're doing it alone.

So if you really align with this idea that ruckus makers do school different, you wanna reimagine education even within a traditional system.

I. So that, listen to these words so that you create a campus experience worth showing up for.

You.

Do that within a group, right?

So find yourself a way to get connected and uh, that way you could create that campus of your dreams.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Yeah.

All right.

So there's, there's our next three.

Uh, this has been, this has been pretty good.

I, I enjoy this approach.

I think it's working well, so I'm, I'm happy we're doing it.

Um, so we went through three different premises that we rejected, operate in isolation, and we're saying you should instead develop a network of support, give feedback, sandwiches, and we're saying instead, you should be inquisitive and.

like 'em, then move them out.

And we said, you need to find a place for people to best achieve their goals.

So those are our three for today.

If you are listening to this and you're like, Hey, this is good stuff.

You guys should keep doing it, that really helps us.

So let us know.

You follow both of us on social media.

Give it a share.

Uh, give us a shout out.

And say, Hey, this is nice.

We like it, this format, and, and we're going to, we're

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hm.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: going.

Unless people are like, Hey, this is terrible.

You guys should stop.

Then that's, that's good feedback.

You know, we're looking for radical candor.

We want you to have high care and be direct.

So let us know.

We're not looking just for compliments, we're looking for radical candor.

So that's, that's us putting where our money, where our mouth is and, and we really believe that.

Uh, any final words, Danny?

danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: I just thank you for the opportunity.

It's good to connect again and then we'll see, uh, everybody in part three.

Back on, uh, my show.

I.

jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Yep.

So once again, part One on Better Leaders, better Schools, the link is in the show notes.

Part two is on, uh, Transformative principle that's here, and part three's gonna go back to him.

And then all the odd ones are gonna be on his, and all the even ones are gonna be on mine.

And we're just gonna keep doing this.

And we don't have like a perfect release schedule.

So it's not like these are all gonna be.

In line or, or like, uh, every week or whatever, we're gonna release them as, as it makes sense.

And, and that's it.

So, uh, I hope you enjoy this, uh, eventually.

I'm sure we will put them all in one place, but for right now, this is what it's gonna, what it's gonna be.

So, thank you for listening to Transformative Principal.

Thank you for being here, Danny, and I hope everybody has a wonderful week.