Transformative Principal

jethro_2_04-23-2025_143737: Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading.

I'm your host, Jethro Jones.

You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones.

Jethro Jones: Welcome to Transformative Principle, this episode.

Oh boy.

good stuff.

This is about my podcast to PhD discussion.

If you've been listening for a long time, you remember that back in 20 20, 20 21, something like that.

I said, I bet that I can do something and get a doctorate degree.

Uh, somehow related to this podcast, I've been through a million different ideas and figured something out.

I enrolled into a doctoral program and now I'm at a stage where coursework is done and it's time for me to do the dissertation.

And one of my biggest fears is getting the dreaded all but dissertation and being.

And having this thing over my head that I can't get off.

And so, uh, I do these, uh, these things called a big impact mixer each month, uh, that you can check out Jethro dot site slash Big Impact mixer, and you can, you can join those.

But one of the things that I happened to learn was that in my network already.

As someone who coaches and helps people finish their dissertations, was like, this is great.

So Dr. Jayne Lammers, welcome.

Tell us about what you do and how you started helping people with dissertations.

I.

Dr. Jayne Lammers: thank you, Jethro.

So you and I had an opportunity to talk, uh, about the work that I do in my day job.

So I'm.

Director of Learning design for Edmentum and have been doing that work since 2022.

But since 2010, I have been supporting doctoral students, uh, both my peers at that time.

And then I was formerly, um, a tenured professor at the University of Rochester.

And for a whole host of reasons, pandemic, family, whatever.

I left academia.

I gave up tenure, and I took the role at edmentum and I love what I do and I miss the support of DOC students.

So because of my own commitment to my students and what we had built together, even when I started at Edmentum.

I still kept the, the final five of my students and saw them through their dissertations.

So anyone who had already passed their proposal was somebody that I kept.

But at the time I had 13 doctoral students.

And if anybody out there who's listening to this is either in a doctoral program or, uh, knows at all what it's like to advise DOC students.

It's a lot of work, and so when you have 13 of them, you have to develop systems to be successful at doing that.

Jethro Jones: You're speaking my language

Dr. Jayne Lammers: Yes.

Jethro Jones: I love it.

Dr. Jayne Lammers: And you know, I have successfully supported 15 doc students, um, in just the, the time that I was a professor from 2011 to the last one.

I just hooded last month.

Um, and I did so, and I was able to be successful because of these different systems that we put in place.

And, and I gotta say like.

It's not because I'm necessarily special or that I liked them more.

You know, students had all these myths behind the scenes of, um, why I was a good advisor.

And, you know, they would all talk amongst themselves and, and compare notes and people would ask to switch to me.

And in fact, I remember having somebody say like, I want.

To come to you.

Like I've heard good things and I sat them down.

We almost did like an intake first, and I was like, just so you know, if you're coming to me, you're signing up for all of these different systems that have come into place, and you gotta be willing to do that because that's the only way that we are successful.

At doing that.

So I just really missed that aspect of the work.

So I have launched Dr. Jayne Consulting services and I have been helping students at Arizona State University at the University of Pennsylvania at the University of Rochester.

And now I'm thinking about like what might it be to help other students because I think the systems that I've put in place can really help.

Real people be successful at going from A, B, D to ED, D, or PhD, whatever the degree may be.

Jethro Jones: Yeah.

Well, and you, you're really speaking my language here because idea of having systems in place, like a lot of people say, Jethro, how have you done almost 700 episodes of this podcast?

Over 10 years.

And the answer is absolutely systems that if I had to do everything I need to do for this podcast and I didn't have systems in place to make it easy for that to happen, it would just not be possible.

And I've already set up some systems for my own work, uh, on my dissertation that have been.

Proven to be very helpful and some, some ways that I'm, I've been very picky about how I do things so that it's really.

Uh, it's really easy for me to get the work done that I need to get done.

And so, for example, how I take notes is one of those things.

I, if I cannot read it in the read wise app, um, then I. I'm not gonna use it in my dissertation.

And, and that's because when I take a note in there, I can add my comments to the note and then it sinks to my obsidian vault, which is where I write everything.

And then I have the, the citation, I have my thoughts on it in the moment.

I. And I'm ready to go and I don't have to, uh, like go searching through some other thing that I find somewhere else.

And so I've even taken pictures of books and uploaded them into this so that I can have it work in my workflow, because I know if I don't have those systems in place, then, then it's not going to work.

So I want to get into your systems in a second, but before

Dr. Jayne Lammers: Yeah.

Jethro Jones: I want to go back and you, you did this successfully as a. As a dissertation chair.

So you were helping those people.

So how is this different having you as like an A coach versus the chair and how does that make it easier for the student and for their dissertation chair that is working for the university and is like doing that

Dr. Jayne Lammers: It's, it's a great question.

So, um, one of the things that I noticed is that.

Academia and the systems by which academics are valued and how they get recognition does not set the whole relationship up for success on the part of the student.

Let's be real.

And it's not the fault of the professor, right?

It's how they're rewarded.

It's how they're like what matters to any kind of tenure promotion, any of that.

And that doesn't mean that your work as the student doesn't matter to them, but they're just not incentivized.

So that's why I think the role of a coach is helpful.

Now, I do some work as a coach through the University of Pennsylvania in their mid-career program.

It's an ED leadership mid-career program.

And what I love about that is that program has said at the program level, we think coaches are valuable.

And in that role, that was where I was able to see that having somebody.

Kind of pseudo outside of the university.

I have no power over these students.

I'm not sitting in the rooms making decision about them.

I'm not, um.

Required to.

I'm also not required to do all the other things that a university normally requires, so I'm not bogged down by all of that stuff.

But what I am able to do as a coach then is for the students, I'm able to create a, a place of support where they can be real without fear of judgment, uh, about, you know.

There's tenuous relationships amongst faculty members.

Like when I was a chair and I was a faculty member, if students were having challenges, it's very vulnerable for them to come to me and admit that.

Right.

But as the coach on the outside, students can be more real, I've found about what's causing them struggles.

Now, you also asked what's the benefit to the faculty member?

Yeah.

Jethro Jones: Yeah.

Hold on

Dr. Jayne Lammers: Yeah.

Jethro Jones: because here's, here's one of the interesting dynamics in this is that as someone who is attempting to complete a dissertation, I am entering into the same space as my professors to become a

Dr. Jayne Lammers: Yes.

Jethro Jones: And yet they have been giving me assignments, saying this is what needs to be accomplished and treating me as a student.

And so this shift from.

Student to peer is quite jarring because you basically go from, I'm your professor, do all this stuff to now you are in charge and you have to do it all basically on your own and you have to drive the bus.

And I know not every place is like that, but you go back to the incentives and how things are structured.

It is, it is not their responsibility to ensure that I get my doctorate.

It is my responsibility to ensure that it, that it gets completed.

And that creates some challenges in that relationship because, uh, honestly, they, they don't care and they are incentivized for me to take a long time because that's more money to the university for very little effort on the university's part.

And I don't mean to be

Dr. Jayne Lammers: Mm-hmm.

Jethro Jones: That's, that's a crappy situation, but it is because it is a crappy situation.

Dr. Jayne Lammers: identified One of the reasons that I was thinking about, like when I say they're not incentivized Yes.

They're not in, in many ways.

Right.

And it, it makes it seem like they don't care because they don't need to.

Right.

And the other thing is like, think about it.

I had 13 students like trying to keep track of.

All 13 of their projects when from a student perspective, it's your life.

It's a huge part of your life.

Right.

I remember when I was a student and I would have weekly meetings with my dissertation chair, I. Not because she was my chair, but because we had other research projects.

And when I would use those FaceTime opportunities to try to sneak in some questions about my dissertation with her, I remember times feeling like, wait.

She doesn't remember what I told her last week about where I was like, this isn't right.

And I'll tell you, Jethro, a year into being a professor, I saw her at a conference.

I gave her a hug and told her I'm sorry for all the things she didn't know I was saying about her, because now I got it.

Like I understood why she couldn't keep track of all of that.

Right.

And it wasn't really her role.

So from a, from a student perspective, I give students a place where.

I value your project nearly as much as you do, and I help guide that transition from you are the student in a classroom to now you are an independent researcher and, and how you put those things in place.

And the other thing we haven't talked about, I, I loved hearing you say you have all of these systems and those systems are really helpful.

But there's an emotional aspect to writing.

There's an emotional aspect to investing in this project that has consequences the way a dissertation does, both for your program and whatever career motivation got you into this, and doctoral students as older students, as you know, mid-career or beyond career transitioning folks.

You have full lives.

So the other thing that programs don't take into account are all of those things that may happen.

And I think a coach can help you navigate the difference, like all of those different factors.

Um, and again, you may not always have the opportunity to have the FaceTime or the attention.

Of a chair and your chair may not be equipped or even interested.

There.

There are very good reasons why a chair needs to keep boundaries and not necessarily know all about what's happening in your life, but you, as the dissertate needs some support to navigate how, how do I, you know, this real thing happened to me.

How do I still make progress to meet this deadline?

But, oh my gosh, you know?

Here I am.

I, I had a student just last month helping his newborn baby with her jaundice treatments.

And he sent me a picture and he is got his laptop there while he's also got skin on skin time and she's getting her light therapy and, you know what I mean?

Jethro Jones: Yeah, that's

Dr. Jayne Lammers: And that's real.

And so I, as the coach, can empathize with that and help him think through some strategies to.

Kind of do good enough to get through the next milestone to get put it in front of his faculty member.

Jethro Jones: Yeah.

Yeah.

Very good.

And one of the other benefits I see for the faculty member is that you've got someone else worrying about.

Dr. Jayne Lammers: Huh?

Jethro Jones: The progress, who can say what it's like to get through the whole thing?

And, and the, the real challenge for every doctoral, uh, candidate is that they likely have not been through the process before.

So everything is new to them.

And so I've written, uh, four books now and still, uh, writing a dissertation is a different new experience.

So I'm not worried about like, can I put words on paper?

Yes, I can.

What I'm worried about is can I do it in the right way and in the way that is defensible in a dissertation type thing.

So

move on and talk about the systems, uh, that you put in place.

Uh, you, you called it, uh, loving and shoving.

Uh, one aspect of it.

And so let's, let's talk about the, the systems that you put in place to help people be successful with

Dr. Jayne Lammers: I'll, I'll give a quick, uh, hat tip to a University of Pennsylvania student named Steve who came up with that and I thought it was great.

He was like, Dr. Jayne, that's what you're doing.

You're loving and shoving.

Um, and one of the, um, the core.

Aspects to my systems of success is a weekly accountability check-in.

And those are best done as small groups.

So small group accountability.

You set a time, everybody shows up.

It's a no shame space where we create momentum just by you showing up.

And during that short check-in meeting, what happens is.

I hear from you, what's your goal for this week?

I note that down next week we come back and I say, Jethro, you said last week you were gonna work on this, this, and this.

Where are you at with that?

And it's just a reporting out.

And anytime you maybe are like, uh, the other thing that I'm doing when you're reporting out to me is I am looking for.

Patterns in your kind of goal making or goal missing for whatever that may be.

And I'm looking to hear any signs of resistance that I hear, um, anxieties, uh, life getting in the way, uh, programmatic struggles and I look to be a problem solver and we do some quick problem solving for you.

But the reason why this works best in a group, and I developed that when I was at Rochester.

And it works best in the group because then you also hear all of your peers who are at similar stages as you, and you benefit from hearing what they're doing and hearing any coaching that might happen in the moment about their goal setting.

And what I really hone in on in those meetings is setting realistic goals.

Take into consideration your life and what you have going on for that week.

And yes, they need to be smart, right?

Measurable, all that, but it's making them attainable and humane so that when you come to these weekly accountability meetings, you are building momentum through successes, right?

And that's where, and if I hear things like, oh, I didn't do this.

Like, that's where the shoving comes in and I might push you in a particular direction, help you make something more actionable, more realistic for your week, and then you can get some success and some momentum.

Jethro Jones: Well, and this is a key thing that I found, and it's what I'm doing my research on, is these weekly accountability groups through the Transformative Principle Mastermind, which have been ridiculously successful for people who have participated in it, who go on to win.

State and national awards and recognition and improved student achievement and all this kind of stuff, and having a group of people who don't care about all
the other crap that's going on, but just care about you as a person really does make a huge difference and, and this is so valuable for people to have and it.

It.

I often think with things like this, it's like, do I really need this accountability group?

And the answer is yes, I do, because I know that I do so much better when I, when I have to show up and say, I didn't do X, Y, or Z, or whatever, because that is, I don't need anything more than that.

You know, like some people do these things where like if you, if you don't meet your goal, then you have to like pay money to somebody you hate or something

Dr. Jayne Lammers: Yeah, those stick contracts.

Yeah.

Jethro Jones: Yeah, that doesn't work for me, but just showing up to a group of people that I care about that does work for me and I am going to, and I'm gonna show up in a good way for them.

Alright.

What other systems

Dr. Jayne Lammers: Right.

And, um, one plug, one more plug about that weekly accountability group.

So I did that when I was their chair and their advisor.

And of course, like there's incentive to show up, but I now have a year of doing this at Pennsylvania where I am not their chair.

I am just Dr. Jayne coach on the side and the showing up.

It still works and it, it still, it still helps support.

Jethro Jones: I, I would even argue, Jayne, that it works

Dr. Jayne Lammers: Hmm.

Jethro Jones: because if I have to show up to a meeting with my professor, that's one thing.

If I am choosing to show up to a different accountability group, that's, that's a whole other thing.

And, and that is, anyway, I

Dr. Jayne Lammers: Yeah.

Jethro Jones: about that, but, uh, lemme just leave it

Dr. Jayne Lammers: Yeah, I could see agency.

It also could be more motivating.

Yep.

Um, so I already touched a little bit about goal setting.

So I have a particular approach on goal setting and making them attainable and realistic and humane for your life and your realities.

And part of the reason why a coaching relationship helps is that I'm then paying attention to your life in as much as you feel is relevant to share.

So that we can then make sure that your goals are realistic.

So knowing about job changes, knowing about family changes, different things like that help you know, if, if I know that you've got a conference coming up, or if I know that it's the time of year because you're a principal and like what your realities are, that's also helpful in making goals.

Um.

And then another one is shut up and write sessions.

Have you participated in any shut up and write sessions?

Jethro Jones: Yes.

Uh, I have participated in many of these because I've been part of many writing groups, uh, national Novel Writing Month.

I've done that a couple years.

Um, and then also for my own books, the way that I wrote those is.

Largely using this format except I do a little

Dr. Jayne Lammers: Yeah.

Jethro Jones: And so in one I flew, I was in Alaska and I flew down to, uh, to Seattle, and I could not go to the football game that I was there to go to until I had finished a certain number of words and then I, I needed to finish the rest of them on the way, on the plane ride back.

And it was like a. A flight down six hours in Seattle and then a flight back.

And uh, and I got a ton of work done because I was just locked in and focused.

Um, and so then my other book, I wrote all at a retreat at my sister's cabin and I wrote 10 to 15,000 words per day, uh, for the entire week.

And I threw out a whole 15,000 word.

Uh.

Not 10 to 10 to 15,000 pages words.

I think I mis said that wrong, but I threw out a whole 15,000 word chapter, uh, that I had written while I was there because it just didn't fit in the, with the book.

And sometimes you worry like, I can't get this done, but when you focus your time and you have some accountability with someone, then it does work very well to do

Dr. Jayne Lammers: I, I wholeheartedly agree and I think these can be done.

Uh, they are best done in person.

I agree with you, like retreat kind of spaces.

Uh, a colleague of mine and I at the University of Rochester, we ran.

Faculty writing camp faculty and student writing camps on a regular basis.

So kind of honed my practice there, uh, about how to best facilitate them.

And I think some kind of separation space, um, some way to str um, put in structured break times I think helps.

Um, also public goal setting.

Whether that be accountability with somebody else, if you're in a physical space, like when I work at Pennsylvania, we put, you know, big sticky note paper on the wall and everybody lists their goal for that session or that day, whatever our increment is.

And there is celebration involved in going up and crossing it off that you've done it.

Um, and so I think shut up and write sessions can be very, very powerful.

Um, when you are stuck and, and the other reason you, all of yours that you mentioned, Jethro seem to be isolated retreats and I think there's power in social writing as well.

Um, because when you're in a social writing space, that's how I was successful as an academic.

When you are kind of stuck and you look up and there are a bunch of other people around, you also head down with hands on laptops.

It's motivating.

Um, and it, it's really helpful if you've given up this time and this carved out this space.

To just block it out.

And I, I think there's a lot of good that can be done with touching your dissertation or your writing project every day in at least a small amount of increments.

But there's real power in dedicated, you know, separate, shut up and write sessions as well.

Jethro Jones: Yeah, absolutely.

Okay.

Uh, good.

What else?

Dr. Jayne Lammers: Last one I'll plug is a peer exchange.

And this one I learned by doing in my own doctoral program at Arizona State.

We had a group, um, we were, we are now the grad school sisterhood.

We remain connected since then.

'cause those bonds that get formed when you finish a dissertation together are really powerful.

And we had a mantra of leave, no dissertate behind, and we just banded together and decided we were all going to finish and we would swap papers with each other.

And you might think, wait a second, it's taken every ounce of extra time.

I have to even get my own done.

I don't have time to look at somebody else's.

But I would argue, and I have found in my own experience and with my students when they finally take me up on this, that when you can look at somebody else's, there's power in seeing a different mentor text.

There's power in separating yourself from the role of author and researcher and creator, and instead being a reviewer or feedback giver.

You then learn more, and then you can take that learning back to your own document and your own work.

So there's real benefit to exchanging papers with people.

It also gives you another layer of accountability.

If you've set up within your group, say, okay, by next week I'm gonna have these 10 pages done, or chapter, you know, three done, or whatever it is.

You know, give me yours.

You look at mine, and then we, we swap and give each other feedback so you can learn a lot from the feedback giving.

You can learn a lot from seeing others and it helps you with accountability.

It does.

It is not a waste of time.

It is very worthwhile.

Jethro Jones: Yeah.

Uh, very.

Very good.

And, um, the peer exchanges piece, uh, is, is really tough if you haven't done it.

But once you have, you're like, oh, that was actually really good.

I learned some things that I can use in mine.

I can give some good feedback that makes me feel good, that I am not like just struggling through my own thing by myself, that I actually have learned some things that I can share with others.

Um, so there are.

Uh, next steps I wanna hear about what you have to offer and how people can get in touch.

I do want to say for what I'm doing right now, I've taken a lot of your ideas and.

Done a cheapo not as good version with my Dagger accountability group for doctoral students.

And what this group that I created was basically a way for me to make sure that I have the accountability that I need.

' cause I know I need this.

I didn't know you did this when I created this, but now that I do, I'm like, okay, this is good.

So.

If you are interested at the show notes at Transformative Principal dot org, you can get a hit that link to join the Dagger Doc support group.

And I will you, you're welcome to join that.

This is intentionally no meetings.

'cause I do not want, I don't want to be a coach on this 'cause I need the coaching.

But I needed accountability also, so I created this.

So it's totally free for me.

But you charge for your services as well?

You should, but I'm not offering anything special here.

This is automated questions that go out asking how you're doing, and I said, and I say in the form like, I don't want another meeting.

So that's not what I'm offering.

But if you just need a little push, which is what I needed, you can join that.

But tell us how people can get in touch with you and join your

Dr. Jayne Lammers: And before I do that, Jethro, let me ask you this.

Why do you think a coach might be necessary?

When, when is a coach helpful versus when is a coach?

Not because, because I think, you know, you're onto something, you have you, you're offering something to people.

What, what makes you think a coach might be something helpful for some

Jethro Jones: Well, I know that I need a coach because I need someone who's been there and done it to say, this is what needs to happen because.

I, my professors are gonna tell me what they think and what they think is gonna work.

And I have to play the political and bureaucratic game to accomplish what I need to, to get it done.

But I also need someone who can say, uh, that part really is not that important, and it's okay to not put 10 hours into that even though your professor said you really should, because that part actually doesn't matter all that much.

Uh, also somebody who can say.

What you're gonna do, stats yourself, that's dumb.

Why don't you pay this guy 10 bucks to do the stats for you?

Go hire someone to do that work.

Why are you doing this?

You should be paying someone to do this.

Why are you perforating it?

You should pay an editor to do it, which is what I did with my books, and that was a easy.

Thing to decide, but some of those things I'm not totally sure about, that someone who could be a coach would be much more beneficial.

And so I know that I need a coach and 'cause all the things that I've done that have worked.

Starting my podcast, I went and found a coach starting my business, I found a business coach writing my books.

I found a writing coach.

Like I just know the power of having a coach and having someone else who can say, here's, here's a shortcut, here's a system, here's a. A thing to think about that you might not have thought about before.

Those things are definitely needed and I encourage people to go find those, whatever they're doing.

Dr. Jayne Lammers: I love that.

Jethro, you're, you're a great salesperson for coaching.

I, I think,

Jethro Jones: Let's go

Dr. Jayne Lammers: yeah, let's go.

Let's do it.

And I think that, uh, another thing that a coach, like as you're thinking about it, like, do I have the time for something else, for a coach?

Do I have the money for a coach?

As you're evaluating that, I would invite you and your listeners to think about like, what are the.

Opportunity costs.

Like what are you missing out on by having this dissertation hang over your head for long term?

Jethro Jones: Yes.

Dr. Jayne Lammers: people get to this independent stage and it, and they languish or they take a lot longer than they wanted to, right?

And so I would ask you to think about what are you missing out on?

What could you be doing once this dissertation is behind you?

Maybe that's personal.

Maybe you're thinking about family, maybe you're thinking about all the times that you feel like, ugh, you can't be fully president present at the basketball game for your kids.

You can't really do that strategic initiative at your school that you've been dying to implement because you've got this dissertation hanging over your head.

So I, I think a coach, um, when you run the, the cost benefit analysis.

I think you'll find that coaching, um, and getting involved in some sort of accountability is really helpful.

So if fe people want to, um, get involved in some of my services, you are going to link my website to the show notes.

So my website is the best way, Jayne lammers.com.

I kept it simple.

Um, and you can find me, you can hear, uh, you can read more about it.

You, I've got some testimonial.

I screwed up that word.

I've got some testimonials on there from past students as they talk about things that I do, like the weekly accountability group meetings, writing sessions, things like that.

I am able to work virtually.

I'd be happy to do workshops or things like that for programs.

I've been doing some of those things, so if listeners maybe want to pass my, uh, contact information on to their programs, and I do workshops for faculty members to help them set up these systems for their own students.

And I also do workshops for programs and for students.

Um, as well on how to be successful.

So all of these are available.

My LinkedIn is another place to find out more about what I'm thinking about in the world of ai, ed, tech, and all things.

Jethro Jones: Yeah.

Very good.

And uh, so go to the website, Jayne lambs.com.

Is that

Dr. Jayne Lammers: Yep.

Jethro Jones: Okay.

Jayne lammers.com.

And there's a link to that in the show notes.

You can go check it out.

Um, and so my, my last question is typically about how to be a great leader, but this, today I am gonna ask you, what's one thing that someone who is in a doctoral program can do this week to get one step closer to being done with their dissertation?

Dr. Jayne Lammers: Set up a system of accountability.

Jethro Jones: Okay.

Boom.

Dr. Jayne Lammers: some sort of external visibility.

So whether that's a coach, a group.

Something, set up some accountability that gets you from here to complete.

I like it.

Jethro Jones: like it.

All right.

Once again, that's Jayne lammers.com and you can find that in the show notes@transformerprinciple.org.

Uh, this has been a great conversation and I'm excited to start working with you.

So thank you, Jayne.

Appreciate it.

Dr. Jayne Lammers: You, Jethro.

It's been a pleasure to talk with you about this.

I.