Transformative Principal

Welcome to Transformative Principle,
where I help you stop putting

out fires and start leading.

I'm your host, Jethro Jones.

You can follow me on
Twitter at Jethro Jones.

Okay.

Welcome to Transformative Principal.

I am your host, Jethro Jones.

You can find me on all the
social networks at Jethro Jones.

Transformative Principal is a proud
member of the BE Podcast Network

and it's where you go to get all
your great educational podcasts.

And if you like education, if you're
in education, we've got a show for you.

And if you're looking on our
shows@bepodcastnetwork.com and you

don't see a show, why don't you reach
out to me and let's make a show?

'cause everybody needs a good podcast.

And there are so many amazing stories
out there that it's just a tragedy.

If we don't have a show
for you, so let me know.

That's b podcast network.com.

Today on the show, I'm
excited to have Patrick Rein.

He is a middle school, uh, teacher
and he taught history and leadership

for 10 years and has been a district
level instructional coach and

restorative justice specialist.

He's currently serving in a TOSA role
and is doing some really cool stuff.

Outside of that, which is he's created
a coherent instructional framework

that applies a Moneyball approach,
leveraging data and analytics

on key performance indicators.

And he's written a book called Theory
Can Only Take You So Far, which the

title of that just speaks to my heart.

And he developed a data collection
app called Ed Changer Pro that

brings the system to life.

So Patrick, welcome to
Transformative Principle.

Great to have you.

Yeah.

Thank you for having me, Jethro.

All right, so for those who aren't
familiar, tell us about this Moneyball

approach and what that means, and
then how you apply it in education.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Great start.

Um, I have, so I'm a baseball fan and one,
a famous story in the history of baseball

is about the Oakland AEs franchise
and their general manager, Billy Bean.

And Billy Bean is famous for managing
that franchise, which is, comes from

a smaller market, which means they
have, you know, smaller fan base,

smaller city, and smaller income.

They're required to compete with
all of these higher income teams.

And so Billy Bean is tasked with
trying to create a competitive

roster less money, um, which is
something I connect with in education.

Um, you know, I. like often we hope
to have more resources and more money,

and that help is just not coming.

so Billy Bean develops this system
of data and analytics order to

create a better, more efficient,
uh, system within baseball.

And so I guess the story is, there is a
point in the movie where Billy's talking

to these traditional minded scouts.

The scouts are judging players on things
like the shape of their jaw and how

they look these surface level qualities.

In fact, the the scene kind of
ends when one scout says, we

can't pick up that player because
his girlfriend's only a six.

He's got an ugly girlfriend,
which to me, like.

Represents so much absurdity
because that has nothing to do

with how you can play baseball.

And so my theory is, is that we are
sometimes applying unintentionally

a similar approach to how we
judge instruction and teachers.

Sometimes it's the teacher
with the Pinterest classroom.

Sometimes it's the teacher
that's popular with the kids.

Sometimes it's the teacher that's
connected that has this reputation.

Um, and.

There is great instruction is so critical
in schools, and so I've developed this

again with that, along with that idea
of data and analytics and taking these

key performance indicators that Billy
Bean used in his analysis of baseball.

Um, I've created this system where
we do that for the classroom.

Yeah.

Well, and I, I love the idea of taking
away the things we judge educators on that

don't mean anything, um, because there's a
lot out there that we could judge them on.

And in a lot of situations,
like I. It just doesn't matter.

And, and so we, let's get into those
key performance indicators that you're

talking about because, um, I have my own
perspective on these, but I want to hear

yours first and let's, let's talk about
'em, maybe see some unique things there.

Yeah, so background, I'll, I'll preface
my ideas with, uh, I'm in a unique

position as a professional learning
toso where I spend like a third of my

time in the classroom, often teaching,
but sometimes observing teachers.

A third of my time working on building
systems with principals and about a third

of my time at the district office and.

The best part of my job is I get
to see all of the amazing things

that are happening in all corners
of our school district, and

teachers really are incredible.

But then the other thing I see
everywhere is this feeling of crisis.

And I think, and unintentionally, as
we've tried to combat that feeling of

crisis and find relief, we keep looking
at like individual initiatives or quick

fixes to try to solve the problem.

And my, foundational viewpoint is, is
that we have to stop throwing shiny

objects and quick fixes at the problem and
start building and maintaining systems.

And again, I've done that.

From an instructional practice perspective
and created a classroom system and

just analyzed a ton of research and
evidence and my own experience as a

teacher, and then also used AI a little
bit, and I found consistent that the

practices of building community and
relationships intentionally, planning

routines, teaching expectations,
informed supervision, I call it.

Positive feedback, corrective feedback
and opportunities to respond or rigorous

questioning are the most critical
indicators of grade instruction.

And then I add the eighth practice
of what would be considered like that

first wave of tier two in the classroom.

Um, teaching moves for targeted support.

Those practices make a classroom system.

Um, and the way that I phrase that is
I use the quote systems equals hope.

And what that quote means to me
is, is that as a teacher, I'm

gonna have hope when there's a
logical next step in my work.

and so when you have that system
implemented, say your class

feels contentious, it's a really
clear, logical next step to build

community and relationships.

If your class feels
chaotic, install routines.

If your class feels cold, then you
wanna increase positive reinforcement.

So that system creates that
po that logical next step.

that's something that's
gonna give teachers hope.

I like that.

All right, so I was taking
notes while you were talking.

Building community classroom
routines, informed supervision

feedback, opportunities to respond,
rigorous questioning, teaching

moves for targeted support.

Did I miss one?

Uh, teaching expectations,

Teaching expectations.

Okay.

Thank you.

in line with, with routines, right?

Yeah.

Okay.

Alright, so, so that's good.

What I, what I really like about what
you said is that these systems create

hope and so when, when you're struggling
with something, then you can figure

out what the next thing is to do.

And you gave some good examples there.

So I want you to go into
that a little bit more.

How do you know that these
are the next right things?

Or do you have to learn that?

Do you have to be taught that?

Um, what's, what's the process for
making sure that you, you know,

what the next right thing is?

'cause it's not really
gonna give you hope.

If you are like, well, if you know
there's, if it feels cold in here, then

I'm gonna, then I'm just gonna work on
giving more opportunities to respond, or

I'm gonna have more rigorous questions.

Those are not necessarily going to fix
that cold atmosphere in the classroom.

So how do you know what
the right thing to do is?

Yeah, and that's a really, I mean,
part of it is I think building

capacity in the system over time, and
you start to recognize those things.

could answer that question in two ways.

I think.

I would say that it starts with, some
people are really intuitive at making

those decisions and seeing those
human elements in, in a classroom.

And honestly, generally, I was in a
conversation with this, you know, state,

high level MTSS recently, and he said
something that kind of floored me.

He said, your app because know,
what I've learned is only 2% of

teachers really need to be evaluated.

98% of teachers need to be coached.

Um, and so a lot of people are really
intuitive in making those decisions, but

what I, I would first answer that question
is, is what we need to do is level

set and build capacity in instruction.

And I think the only way that
we do that is start starting

to collect data on instruction.

So if I'm, I'll use the
simplest possible example.

Uh, a lot of people are
familiar with the idea that.

a four, approximately four to one positive
to negative inter action ratio that's

thought of as optimal in a classroom.

And you hear between three and
five to one for that number.

But that's something
people are familiar with.

And I can, as a observer, just
sit in a classroom and tally

P-P-P-N-P-P-N, and tell you as a
teacher exactly what your ratio is.

And so by having that data
collection, you start to see.

What optimal feels like, right?

If I collect data on you three times,
and once you're one-to-one, and once

you're two to one, and once you're
four to one, you can feel what four

to one feels like, but you also get
to see how that impacts your students.

And so that kind of profound learning
and growth that happens on that data

collection is, I think that's how we
build capacity and maybe people who can't

so intuitively make those decisions.

I, I really appreciate that,
and some people are intuitive

response because some people.

Get it.

And some people can walk into a
classroom and set all those things up

in virtually no time at all because
they are just so good at it, either

through practice or naturally.

And so like.

For me, my first year teaching, there
were a lot of things I needed to learn

how to do, but there were a lot of
things that I just knew intuitively

needed to happen and nobody told me.

In fact, I was in alternative routes
to licensure teacher, so I didn't take

any education classes before I got my
first teaching job, not a single one.

However, I've been teaching, you know,
my whole entire life since I was 12

years old in different ways, so I was.

Uh, there were a lot of things that
I already knew, and so stepping

in, uh, I had, you know, probably
75% of the way there of being

a, a great teacher on day one.

And then I needed to learn
some strategies beyond that.

But at this point, you know, I. It's,
it's now my 20th year in education.

I can go into any classroom with any
group of adults or children and be

able to command the space and set
up expectations and, and establish

routines very quickly because I've
just learned how to do those things

and that's not the case for everybody.

And that idea of, I need to talk to that
person who said that 2% of teachers need

to be evaluated, 90 se 8% need to be.

Coach, that's, I think that's
absolutely right because we also know

that like 98% of teachers pass their
evaluations and it's just a hoop to

jump through, and it's a waste of
everybody's time, and yet we keep doing

it because it's not really necessary.

What, what's going on with that?

Yeah.

I love that, that point you
probably saw on my face point

Yeah.

the, our evaluation being
a hoop to jump through

In our evaluation system, we, you
know, it's 30 indicators with a rubric

with four different descriptors.

It's so complicated and
teachers are so busy.

Most teachers I don't even
think know what they say.

And I think, again, this system, so,
I'll dive into what I really wanna

say is, is that, you know, I just
think teachers are so incredible.

There are so many amazing
teachers doing so amazing things.

And, um, having that evaluation
system that's so complex versus this

simple system of eight objective.

Observable data points something
that's gonna bring teachers efficacy.

And the way I want to say it is, is
I use the quote often, repeating is

not the same as creating in my work.

And I think teachers
are just so incredible.

And there's almost two injustices here.

One.

I don't think teachers have been presented
that simple of a coherent system of here's

the eight practices that you need to do.

these 30 indicators that seem so
much, and then they get overwhelmed.

But the other injustices is, I don't think
they've ever aren't coached in this way.

That really acknowledges how
incredible they are and that they

are the experts of the students.

this process of data collection, if I sit
in the classroom and I tally students.

EEED for engaged, disengaged,
engaged, disengaged.

And then I calculate after about three
rounds of going through the class,

that 70% of students are engaged.

sit down next to that teacher and
say, you have 70% of students engaged.

80 to 90 is the optimal ratio.

The RTI Triangle shows us that, right?

What are we gonna do about it?

some new activities.

Maybe it's as simple as choosing
some new activities, or maybe we

need to install a new routine.

Maybe there needs to be some increase
in positive feedback, but I can have

that coaching conversation where
it's not me just stripping away all

of their creativity and personality
and telling them what to do.

It's us sitting side by side and them
making the decisions for their classroom

because they're the experts, because they
are, um, teachers are incredible and they

deserve to be acknowledged such, I think.

Yeah, and they're professionals
and, and it's crazy that we have.

This complex, convoluted, uh,
impossible to manage, uh, expectation

about their, you know, evaluations.

Um, when the first district I was a
principal in, we had 54 indicators

and like there's, they would say.

There's no way for you to do all 54
of these in a single observation,

but that doesn't make anybody
feel like it, like that matters.

And the other part of it is that
there's so much there that it

seems like it's intentionally
designed to make it difficult for

them to notice and pay attention.

We as the principles, when we do
these evaluations, we are doing them

on multiple teachers multiple times.

So we, we are familiar with the tool.

And, and what I like about your
and other simple approaches, uh,

like, uh, Craig Randall, do you
know his trust-based observations?

Uh, no, I've never heard of Craig

Okay.

He's, he's over in Tacoma, so
he's, uh, he's a wash Tony also.

And, um, his trust-based observations
is fantastic because it's,

it's all about building trust.

Through that process and, and what, what
we need more of is respect for teachers

as professionals and an opportunity
for them to know exactly what good

teaching looks like and, and how they
can be great teachers and not have it

be so complex that it's like, it it some
proprietary formula that determines.

What your score number is based on
all these ev uh, observations and,

and data points that is so opaque.

You don't know really what's going on.

But what you're saying
is, here's engagement.

And my word for that is enrollment.

Kids can be engaged, but that
doesn't mean that they're enrolled.

Like you can be engaged in activity
but not be paying attention to it

or not care about the end result.

Enrolled means you are
choosing to be part of that.

Uh, activity and you're choosing to,
to fully engage in it yourself rather

than, you know, kids can be engaged in
cool math games.com, but that doesn't

mean that they're learning anything.

Yeah.

and so that, that type of approach
of here's what it looks like to

be a good teacher, here's some
clear data points that say that.

Those are important.

'cause that also gives clarity.

The systems give hope, but those
systems and expectations also give

clarity about what good looks like.

But if it's 30 things, it
doesn't, it's too much.

If it's eight things, I, I think
that's a little bit more manageable.

And I would even argue that you
could probably get it down to

maybe even five and, and that
would be much more manageable.

But that's work that I'll
leave you to do, Patrick.

Yeah.

No, thank you.

I agree.

Um.

And I mean, the two response I would say
is I, I love that point that you made as

far as just the overwhelm nature of those
evaluation systems from 54 30 indicators.

Either one is a lot.

And it kind of brings me back to that
original point where that idea of like

quick fixes and shiny objects that are
gonna solve the problem, like what ends

up happening in education generally from
what I see is, is that, and again, I

think generally with the best intentions.

Everybody's trying to make things better
for kids, but everybody's got a different

initiative, so there's eight initiatives
coming at teachers and then there's, you

know, we try 'em for six months and they
work or don't, and something comes down

the pipe that's next, it creates that
constant feeling of initiative fatigue.

Um, and so that's kind of the
premise again of my work is, is like.

We can't continue to try to
solve all of our problems in

education with initiatives.

We have to start building
and maintaining systems.

Mm-hmm.

could probably, um, combine intentional
routines and teaching expectations and

corrective and positive interactions to
just feedback and make it more like five.

Um, but either way, like that's a system
and it's there whether it's five or

eight, and we have to really at some point
start building and maintaining systems.

Um, I. Education has changed a lot
in the last 10 years and it's gonna

continue to change faster and we're
not gonna be, in fact, I'd say we're

already behind on the inclusionary
practices and AI changes that are coming.

Oh

Um, if we don't start building and
maintaining systems now, things

are gonna continue to get harder.

Yeah, absolutely.

So on the initiative thing, I have a
podcast episode that I'm gonna put in the

show notes where we did 34 initiatives
in three years at my middle school

and there was no initiative fatigue.

And here's how we dealt with that.

We said the here's our goal
and here's where we're going.

This is our vision.

And if you as a teacher think
you can do something to help us

move toward that vision, we will
adopt that as an initiative.

But we're only going to adopt initiatives.

Once I, the principal have set
the vision, we're only gonna adopt

initiatives that teachers bring forward.

So the district's not gonna have a
mandate that they're gonna add in later

and say, this is what we're all gonna
do now we have a vision and we're gonna.

Init we're gonna put into place those
things that you teachers are coming

up with that we need to implement to
do, to do the vision for our school.

And we had, uh, happy teachers.

We had effective teachers, we had,
uh, students who were growing two to

five grade levels in our remediation
classes in math and language arts.

Um, and these were all because of the
efforts that the teachers were saying,

this is what we need to do our work.

And, and whenever somebody brings
up initiative fatigue, I have to

tell that story because it doesn't
have to be that way, you know?

And, and that's the key.

You can make changes within your schools.

Yeah.

Well, what I hear you saying there
is to be honest and using that

word initiative, but I hear you
actually saying you built the system.

That is right.

of these components, right?

That's what I hear you saying and

Yep.

um, 'cause initiatives required.

You have to install new ideas
into schools to keep up.

But doing it in a way that's sustainable
and it fits coherently within, into

a system, um, is the mindset shift.

I think that needs to happen.

But

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know.

Would you agree with that or what are

Yeah.

point?

totally.

I mean, that's, that's the whole
thing is we, we set up systems where.

If you, if you felt like something needed
to be done, you could bring that forward

and we could make a school-wide change,
but it had to come from the teachers.

Uh, or, or there were systemic
things that needed to happen

that, that I had to initiate.

Uh, for example, one of those things
was we need, uh, we have too many kids

who are below grade level, and so we
need to adjust how we do language arts.

So for example, we had 90
minute blocks of language arts.

I'm a language arts teacher.

I love it.

I, I, I could like sit around,
talk about books and reading

and writing all day long.

However, we had a lot of kids
who were struggling even in that

system with all that extra time.

So we said we're gonna reduce the
required time for ELA to 45 to a

45 minute period for everybody.

And then anybody who needs extra
help is gonna get targeted additional

support in, in an additional period.

And so, because we had it set up,
we had the teachers, we had the.

The things in place we need to make
a system-wide change, but we could do

that within our, our arena of influence
and make it work for our students,

which was very beneficial for for them.

And that's where we saw huge gains because
I. Taking away that 90 minute block of

language arts also gave students who
needed math support additional help.

And that's where we saw kids go from
a, uh, second grade math proficiency

level to grade level math proficiency
in a semester, which was incredible.

I almost didn't even
believe it when I saw it.

And I was like, there's no way that
these kids could grow this much.

And yet they did because they got
very targeted, specific support.

In the areas that they needed.

And a huge part of that had
nothing to do with teaching.

And it was a ton of mindset
work for those students.

They had been told they were dumb in
math their whole lives, and this teacher

spent a lot of time telling them that
they could, that they could learn how

to do math, that it wasn't impossible.

Whereas all their previous teachers
had been saying, you're just an idiot.

You can't do this.

Not by using those words,
but by the actions they took.

So anyway, that, that, uh.

That time at that school was
really amazing and incredible.

We did a lot of cool things.

So, uh, check out that link.

People who are listening, initiative
fatigue is what the link is.

Um, and then I wanna talk a little
bit about your app before we close,

because it's one thing to say,
here's all this good great stuff

that we can, we can talk about.

But you actually made an app to make it
easier to keep track of all this stuff.

Tell us about that.

Yeah, so how the app works specifically
is, again, I have and created

data points, um, based on a ton of
research and evidence, like I said.

little bit of help from AI for
all of those eight practices.

And so each one has what
I, what I call like games.

You open the app and you can click on each
practice and it brings you into a game.

'cause they're kinda like little games.

When you, sitting in a classroom and
you're tapping P or N, it kind of

feels like you're playing a game.

Or one of them is, is like
student to teacher talk time.

The data point is that, um.

70% of class should be student talk.

30% of class should be teacher talk.

So you're sitting and toggling
back and forth between

student talk and teacher talk.

Um, they're kind of little games
and they're kind of fun to play.

But then again, really
they're data monitoring tools.

And so you go into a classroom, you
open the app, you pick a practice.

These make great 10 minute observations.

Again, positive, negative
interactions, students being engaged

for one routine, whatever that is.

you collect the data as an observer.

Or teachers can do this
on their own, right?

Like a teacher could sit there
and track their interactions

or if students are engaged.

And after the observation, it brings you
to a screen that gives you your data.

And then when you hit okay, it brings
you, it pops up your email it sends

the teacher an email with their data.

And would I have like three high
quality resources for each practice.

so the teacher then can do some learning.

So if I'm monitoring your, um, let's,
I'll do my favorite one for you, Jethro.

I'm monitoring your informed supervision.

And so how that's set up is, is
I come in the app I tap on a grid

to create a map of your classroom.

then when I hit, okay, the map pops up,
but now it's touchable and I can drag my

finger around your supervision patterns.

you stop and interact with a student,
I can tap positive, negative, or

PN or O for opportunity to respond.

Did you positively reinforce?

Correct them a question?

I do that for 10 minutes it sends you
the map, it sends you the interactions

you had with your students, then
it also sends you a webinar of me

talking about a 10 minute webinar of
me talking about informed supervision.

Like the first resource, which is like how
to strategically make those interactions.

When I approach a student, do I positively
reinforce correct or ask them a question?

And then the third resource
is this tiered framework.

So that's like if you're a refined
teacher and you kind of know how

to make those decisions, but that
the tiered framework provides like

six or seven deeper resources.

Then it also provides these, these three
resources that I've created, like a one

pager that explains a project, a tier one,
like teaching moves, and then a tier two,

like teaching moves for targeted support.

Um, so those are the three resources.

The webinar, like a First Steps for
Refinement, and then a framework that

has tiered resources that anyone can
find something to support their practice.

Um.

each of the practices have those
games can play, send the data

to the teacher with resources.

So again, that acknowledges
them as experts.

They can go through the resources
and decide they want to adjust

based on the data that they got.

That's great.

So now, uh, when the principal's
sitting in the back of the room,

he's just playing games on his iPad.

Had, uh, that's, that's good.

Um, no, I, a I actually really like that
because I personally, I used observations

as a game, uh, when I was doing it.

And it was a, you know, how many,
how many things on this 50 to four

point checklist, can I mark off and
can I, can I get 'em all, you know?

And, and I would make it a game because
for me that was the only way to.

To survive doing it.

But I like this, uh, intentionality
in making it more like a game so that

it's actually a fun thing to do and
it's not tedious and, um, and not,

uh, not boring for the teacher or the
principal who's in there observing.

Yeah.

Thank you.

It's good.

Um, so I, I gotta introduce you to,
uh, um, Ben at Classroom Mosaic, uh,

who does a lot of stuff with, uh.

Principal and teacher observations.

Um, 'cause I think you two
would, uh, you'd, you'd

probably hit it off pretty well.

So I'll, I'll make that
connection after we're done here.

That that'll be good.

Yeah.

Love that.

Thank you so much.

Yeah.

So, uh, my last question is, uh, I asked
this at the end of every interview.

What is one thing that a principal can
do this week to be a Transformative

leader like you, Patrick.

Man, that's a tough, I think,
you know, there's so many things.

Um, and it does really, I think
it all comes back down to, uh, it

all comes down to relationships.

I've kind of two things I wanna say,
but it all comes down to relationships.

Um, taking the time to connect with
your teachers, be there to support them.

That's such a big thing to say, right?

Because how do you do that?

But, um, finding a way to stop by
and connect with the teacher every

day, or making sure when there's
student behavior issues that

the teacher doesn't feel alone.

Or ways, you know, to
build teacher practice.

So they have increased efficacy.

Um.

And I guess I'll, I'll say to that
is, is that a quote I use a lot is,

is self-care is working in a system
that you feel confident in, right?

The story I tell is, is like
during COVID, systems were a mess.

And you like, how I responded was
I bought a pool table and me and my

buddies played pool till three in the
morning often, that was our self-care.

But guess what?

We woke up the next day, tired.

And struggling and we still
had all of our work to do.

Right.

But, um, when you feel confident in
the system, so as a teacher, when I

feel confident that I can instruct my
classroom, um, what teachers really want.

That's real self-care for teachers.

It's not going to get
a massage after school.

Teachers care so much about their,
they care desperately about their kids.

They just wanna be better teachers.

So supporting them in that too.

Very good.

Well, this, this was awesome.

Um, you can connect with, uh, Patrick and.

The show notes, I have a link to
his LinkedIn, A link to his book

Theory can only take you so far.

And a link to the app Ed Changer
Pro, which you can, uh, get yourself

and try it out and see how it goes.

Um, Patrick, thanks so much for being
part of Transformative Principle today.

Yeah.

Thank you so much for having me, Jethro.

Appreciate you.