Transformative Principal

Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading.

I'm your host, Jethro Jones.

You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones.

Okay.

to Transformative Principle.

I am your host Jethro Jones.

I.

my good friend Danny Bauer here with me and we are continuing our reject the premise.

Book writing creation thing, whatever we're doing.

It's been a while since we released one of these episodes, uh, and it's been a while on my podcast, especially because we are alternating between Transformative Principal and better leaders, better schools.

And what we did about a year ago is we started writing a book and we made all these great ideas and did all these note cards, and then we both just let the pro the project go.

And then after a while we got.

You know, we talk all the time and so we said, Hey, we should do something with this.

And so we decided we're gonna record these episodes and then write a book from this and see what comes of it.

So in the show notes today, you can find the link to part one of this and which was on Danny's No on Danny's podcast.

Part two is on my podcast.

Part three was on Danny's podcast, and this is part four, uh, of this.

And we did like 46 cards, so this could go on.

For a while, and we're not putting any pressure on ourselves to do this in any certain kind of way or, or anything like that because we're just gonna let it go with the flow and, uh, and release them as they come.

So, uh, welcome and I hope you enjoy this.

What we do is we go through each one of these premises that we have and why we should reject these ideas, reject the premise, and do something different instead.

So

Hmm.

want to add to that, Danny?

Yeah.

Reject what we have to say too, right?

So like that's the whole idea.

The point is that you're thinking for yourself and that, you know, our assertion is, is at times school leaders are sort of given here's how we think about school.

And you know, one of my mentors, Christopher Lockhead says, thinking about thinking is the most important kind of thinking.

Right?

And so don't just, uh, passively accept.

What the system says, you know, what your colleagues say, even what Jethro and I, you know, talk about on the show.

If you agree with us, great.

If you disagree with us, great.

Tell us why.

Let's have a conversation on social media.

Make it social again, less about, uh, politics and stuff that's just like gonna make people upset, but let's have real discussions right about, about school leadership and doing school, different things that we're passionate about.

So I think that's, that's all I have to add is don't even accept what we have to say, um, as, as truth either.

If it is for you, awesome.

If it's not awesome.

Yeah.

And and the beauty is, is that as you define what you believe better, you actually attract people to you who believe what you believe.

And.

Even if you, uh, even if somebody completely disagrees with what you think, they at least know where you stand.

And, and one of the, the real tragedies is that, we just, we don't understand where people stand enough, in my opinion.

And we think that, yeah, we're all in school, so we all do it the same way and we all think the same things.

And, uh, and thus one, not good for everybody.

And two.

That's not good for you yourself when you're just going along and going with the flow.

So we're gonna get started here.

Uh, our first one, uh, the, the, the premise is a question.

What is good teaching?

And, uh, and instead of asking what good teaching looks like, and this is something that I've been ranting on for, for a couple of years now, is schools should really be about learning, as a whole.

First of all.

I have two answers.

Two new premises to adopt here.

One is that school should be about learning, not about teaching, and the second is, who are the kids becoming as a result of being in the school and the academic stuff.

You know, I am sure I've said this before, but every time I do a speech or something, I ask people what they remember about their.

Uh, their own K 12 education experience.

it is never about the lessons or about the tests or about anything that we put so much intentionality into.

It's almost always about who the teachers were, who they believed the kids could become, and, and what they really became is what mattered.

What, what would you add there, Danny?

It's not about the test.

Jethro,

I know, it's crazy.

It's crazy.

what's, what's wild about it is that, you know, obviously like the system and, and, and, um, politics.

Like they put so much pressure on that outcome.

Oh, what, what, what, what city is that?

Starbucks Cup.

Oh, uh, this is from Berlin where I went with my daughter this summer.

Yeah, that's nice.

So I bring one of these back.

I, I got one from Prague also, and, had a great time over there in Europe.

By the way,

Right on.

since I went, have

No, so I, you know, I feel comfortable just going on a tangent.

Um, and Miriam was just in, uh, Bangkok and, uh, Dubai.

So she got one from both of those cities.

Those cups are massive.

We're talking about Starbucks cups.

If you're not seeing the video.

Uh,

been there series.

yeah, they've been there series.

But you know, I think that's an, um, illustrative.

Is that a word?

Uh, it's it,

it is.

yeah.

It's, it's show.

It's showing.

Um, learning in a sense, you know, you, you, you, uh, purchased a memento by getting out of the sort of the box, the four walls of the classroom and making the world the classroom opens up a, a world of possibility.

Right.

And what you can learn.

And, you know, I know you've lived overseas.

I've lived overseas for, for a while, uh, and getting out of your comfort zone, that's a part of learning too.

Right.

How do we measure that on a test?

Where does it say like, how were you pushed and challenged and stretched?

You know what I mean?

Uh, instead of like, X's and O's and A, B, C, and D, and what's the correct answer?

True and false.

Um, I really love what you're saying about who students are becoming.

So I, I, I haven't interviewed her yet, um, but the founder of the Alpha School in, uh, Dallas, Texas, and they're popping up everywhere.

Have, have you seen those?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

have you interviewed her yet?

uh, no I haven't, but she's been on several different shows on the podcast network, so.

Oh, cool.

that she's, she's been on a bunch of these and, um, yeah,

Yeah.

it's really fascinating stuff, what she's doing.

Yeah.

And a big deal, you know, networks like CBS and NBC, you know, like the, the, the local news type of stuff, they're featuring her and why 'cause she's doing school different.

Right.

And I'm sure it's making some people upset potentially because it's really turning the model upside down.

And we have to grant that she has a lot of flexibility.

It's a private school, right?

So you have a little bit more, um.

Opportunity to be creative, but I think there's lessons you can learn from there still.

And, uh, it gives you permission to disrupt and innovate within, uh, a traditional space.

That's what I say when we talk about ruckus makers do school different and rejecting the premise.

The whole point of view is always that it's about re-imagining what's possible even in a traditional setting.

So that you create a campus experience where it's showing up for, so back to Alpha School, and I'm looking forward to interviewing her.

They, they compact the teaching and learning to two hours, two hours and leverage ai, right?

They're seeing their students get, uh, more gains than traditional sort of ways of teaching.

And then what do they do with all the rest of the time?

They answer that question, who are the students becoming?

They're teaching them to be good people, be good, responsible members of, uh, society.

Um, they're, they're, they're pursuing passion projects.

They're doing stuff that you just need to learn how to do, like ride a bike if you're a little kid.

Right?

Uh, it's, it's really interesting.

But, you know, that, that's what I miss from a, from a school experience.

Um, I'll never forget Chicago.

You know, oh, reading scores down, call, you know, sound the alarms, right?

Math scores, abyssal, whatever.

And the mayor at the time, Ram Emanuel, you know, here's the thing, doing more of what you're already doing doesn't mean you're gonna get a better result.

Right?

Yeah.

if the results are already, uh, suboptimal.

And so the answer was, we're just gonna make all those poor public school kids go to school longer.

And get extra doses of reading, not more effective.

We're gonna give you the, the same slop, just a bigger bowl of it.

Right?

Yep.

is like.

you're dumb.

So we're gonna make you go to school longer and make you feel even more dumb, and we're gonna keep telling you that you're dumb 'cause you're not getting this.

It's ridiculous.

I don't

Yeah, it's, it's wild.

And, and then they cut from the arts, they cut from, you know, pe uh, stuff that kids really need to be a kid, especially like, this isn't worldwide, but in the US you don't even see kids being kids as much anymore.

And I'm, I'm guessing like you used to hop on your bike and your parents were like, don't come home until dinner.

Have you done your homework?

Yes.

You know, and then don't come home until dinner.

And that doesn't happen as much in the US anymore.

Other places it certainly does.

Reasons for that.

Not gonna get into it now.

Um, but you learn stuff as you're out there exploring.

I remember even like being across the street, crossing Robinson Avenue, going to the park, and boys bigger than me.

Whooped my butt and threw these crab apples, hit me in the eye, black eye, all terrible stuff.

Uh, but it also was sort of a learning moment, how to defend myself and what to do.

I survived, right?

Thank God.

Yeah.

like, you don't get that if you're always in a bubble, you, uh, staying at home.

So, um, I like the idea of who, who our students, who our students becoming, and that focus from teaching and learning.

So, uh, one thing I want to add about Alpha School, I've talked to Mackenzie and several other people at Alpha School about what they're doing, and

Yeah.

the, the idea, excuse me, is, is actually.

Quite similar to what, uh, I did at, uh, in Fairbanks where we had the synergy time and we had kids work on passion projects and we were doing all that stuff without AI and without the support of it.

Hm.

amazing is that they've taken this idea that if there are discreet pieces of information that we want kids to learn.

Mm-hmm.

do that as fast and as quickly as simply as possible, and break it down so small that we know exactly what it is that they're missing.

And then we just make sure that they get that thing.

And then with all the other stuff that takes so much more time, we should be things that are exciting, interesting, fun, enjoyable, but also hard, and put kids in these uncomfortable situations intentionally so that we can see.

The kind of people that they're becoming.

Martin Luther King Jr. Said the function of education is to teach one, to think intensively and to think critically.

Intelligence plus character, that is the true goal of education I love that because it doesn't matter how smart you are if you are a
terrible person and, and that is really something that is lacking in our education system, that we focus so much on these other things.

And then we try to teach SEL and how to be a good person in character as lessons like we're teaching these other things, you know, like to teach, uh, addition up to 10 or up to a hundred in the same way that you're trying to teach how to be a good person.

And the thing is, is that everybody in a vacuum.

Knows what the right answer and can give it for the character issues, but it's how you actually act that really matters.

And, and so my, my picture for this one is a report card with all of the, uh, character, social, emotional, uh, different aspects of who the kid is becoming, uh, listed out with, uh, descriptions and, and words describing it.

So it's not just.

You know, you passed it and then the academic stuff is just, yes, you got it.

And that's what the thing that I really love about what Alpha School's doing is that they are saying, check all these boxes off.

It's important to learn it.

You need to be smart and have this information, but we can break it down in such a small way that we can get it done quickly.

And then let's work on the real education, which is teaching you how to resilient, have grit, have a growth mindset, all these things that.

we talk about and say we want an education, but we don't ever make the time for

That's good.

I like it.

You know, I'll just, the last like 30 seconds, um, you remember last year in the football season, uh, was it AJ Brown?

Is that his name?

The wide receiver from the Eagles?

Um.

Philadelphia fans, you know, you're passionate about your team.

If I mess that up, you could, uh, go ahead and, uh, send your hate mail to Jethro at Transformative Principal dot com.

But anyway, uh,

he, he scored a touchdown.

And was then obviously resting.

Um, on the sideline.

He was reading a book.

I got the book right here because I saw him holding it.

Inner excellence.

Right.

I didn't buy it right away, but I remembered that moment.

And what a great, what a great, uh, word of mouth, like sort of, you know, advertising campaign.

Like it wasn't planned, it's just, you know, so he is reading it.

Good book.

Um.

Yeah, very interesting.

I think it could be shorter.

That's okay.

That's just a critique.

You know what I mean?

There's, there's, there's fluff, like with a lot of books.

Uh, but the big lesson that I learned, and it was super helpful, uh, I realized how much I'm still focused and chasing sort of outcomes, you know, and, and putting, uh, too much of my worth on sort of external validation.

Um, that is ultimately outta my control and the whole bo point of the book, um, as you can guess from the title, it's all about the inside.

To your point, who are the students becoming?

Who are we becoming and really making that the focus.

That's the game that we're playing.

And if you can sort of master that, you let the chips and the cards fall as they will.

Uh, but you could still be happy that you showed up in the type of person with integrity that you want to be.

You know what I mean?

And so that is, that is the essential piece that, um, we should be focused more on.

Whether it's school, business, society, writ large.

So that's all I'll say there.

I'm done.

Yeah, that's good.

Um, I've been pondering a lot about that kind of stuff also,

Yeah.

um, my kids actually said something to me.

other day we were talking about life and stuff and they said, all these, all these worldly outside our family, things are not going

Mm-hmm.

them to.

But we have a great family and we know we have parents that love us and like to hear my kids say that we're doing a great job as parents and they're teenagers, man.

Like none of that other stuff matters at all.

And, and so, know, that's.

Focus less on the, on the, the outcomes that seem so important and more on the ones that you know are important and, and that's powerful.

Yep.

That's good.

Uh, next one is, uh, this one.

There are a couple different ways that we phrase this.

Number one, because you haven't done my exact role, you can't lead me.

something along the lines of principals need to have been in the classroom for at least a decade to be an effective principal.

Uh, what's your an, what's the new premise after we reject that one?

I mean, the idea that you have to have a decade of experience or whatever, you know?

'cause

social media, man, people on social, like I remember posting something from a Gallup, and this was research that they did recently within the last couple years, and they've found that 53% of students were disengaged from school.

This is a. I, this is an alarm.

This is a terrible critique of the campus experience, right?

It's not worth showing up for, is what it says.

Fi over half your kids, Jethro.

53% say I'm totally checked out.

Right?

Uh, and when I, when I posted that my follow up was the, the problem is clear.

Students aren't creating a can't miss experience, right?

So.

creating a can't miss experience.

did I say?

You said students.

Oh, yeah.

Naughty Danny.

Okay.

Schools, schools aren't creating a can't miss experience.

And so man, teachers, they were upset, Jethro.

And essentially their, their responses to me is, um, I'm not bozo the clown.

I don't work at Ringling Brothers.

Uh, I'm not gonna do a dog and pony show.

And the interesting thing about that.

the point.

Thank you.

I'm glad you caught that because like hundreds, right?

This, this, this, this post really took off and there was a lot of upset feelings and I'm like, why is everybody saying it has to be this like show?

Who said that?

Yeah.

I said, schools aren't creating a can't miss experience.

Like to this basics.

You have something that's so interesting that's gonna happen.

On campus.

I'm not staying home.

I gotta get there.

Right.

Even if it's something social.

Right.

Uh, or, or, or back to travel.

You know, you were talking about, uh, we went, we went to London to, to, to march in the New Year's Day parade.

Right.

And I'm sure, I don't remember at the time, I bet there was like, you know, grade and behavior stuff maybe around that, you know, uh, to incentivize that we go, uh, but at the same time.

Um, there's no way I was gonna miss that trip.

Going to London marching the New Year's Day parade.

That's amazing.

And so are we doing it or not?

You don't have to dress up like a clown, you know, that is not the point.

You could, you could be like boring and monotone.

Whatever, but still create experience that kids want.

Right?

And they'd still come, you know, so you don't need all this flash.

It doesn't require resources.

And what I, what I think it re requires that is connected to principals needing a decade, uh, you know, to be an effective principal, uh, experience as a teacher.

No, you, you, you need a curiosity.

You need a empathy, right?

You need leadership and, um.

It's, it's like about being, having the right skills, uh, to be that leader versus, um, versus the resume.

You know, the old way is that you put in your years, right?

And now if you've crossed some sort of threshold and you have a few more wrinkles and some gray hair, now you can be a principal.

No

Mm-hmm.

curiosity, empathy, the right skills, hard work, creativity, wanting to do school, different, that kind of stuff.

To me, that's what, you know, sets you up, uh, to be a success as a leader.

Yeah.

So yesterday was my kids' first day of school, my sophomore son.

Came home from school and he said, my teacher had the best attention getter ever.

he, he told the story of how his teacher was just, uh, was saying, hello, introducing, and, and talking and like just hanging out at the beginning of class, just getting to know kids while he was mixing something in a beaker.

And then he dumped the stuff out of the beaker and he lit a flame and the thing went boom and, and made this huge explosion in the middle of the class.

Yeah.

like that is the kind of experience that is not a,

Yeah.

Yeah.

and pony show because what he's going to do later, I know because I know this teacher.

Is he's going to say, here's how I made that happen, and here's what it looks like and

Yeah.

these chemicals interact.

And because he did that on the first day of school and his first interaction with the kids, it was, it was a can't miss experience.

And if you weren't there for that day, then you're like, man, what did I miss?

And so you are gonna

Hmm.

to be there for those opportunities.

And, and the reason why I share that is that, you said, you don't have to have been a teacher to.

For a certain number of years to be able to lead effectively because you lead and seek leadership from everywhere and anywhere.

And, and that's what real Rucks makers do, is they find a way to get that leadership there.

Uh, Ralph Nader said the function of leadership is to produce more leaders, not more followers.

And, and if you, you've been in the classroom for.

No time at all.

You can still be an effective leader, and I know that that's blasphemous and that people will lose their minds from me saying that, but that is the truth that you can, and there

Yeah.

who are great leaders, who are not experts in that field because that's not what being a leader is about.

You don't have to know everything.

I'm glad you brought that up 'cause it reminded me.

So the, the reason I, I went on the social media tangent is besides the clown thing, and like, oh, you need a dog and pony show.

Uh, the other very common response, which is, is.

Stupid and lazy.

Like literally, if you took five seconds to look into my background, you wouldn't say what they said, but the tell me, you're not a teacher without telling me you're not a teacher.

Right.

I've gotten that.

I've gotten that for school leadership.

I've gotten that for central office and newsflash, I've actually had experience at all those levels.

And so, um.

I obviously that says more about the person than me, and I'm not gonna take it personally, but it's just, it's just interesting is all I'm saying.

So,

Mm-hmm.

it makes me think about like.

Tell me what you know about teaching as you're a teacher.

Tweeting that and why I would never hire you.

Right.

Like, and, and speaking of that in terms of, um, you know, principals need in a decade, uh, you can see over my shoulder here, it's really pretty.

It says create

Yeah.

results, not a resume.

Right.

This is a before and after old school, traditional resume, CV versus, um, you're out there creating results or, uh, you know, illustrating your learning, uh, in public, right?

That's the new resume.

So that, that teacher's post, like for me was a resume saying, oh, nasty attitude, right?

Like, somebody I wouldn't wanna hire and they don't.

Not even realizing what they're posting there and how that's the new resume.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And, and so I think about that and this idea of there is, uh, the, the role of the principal, a lot of people think is the instructional leader, and that's what all the quote unquote research says.

Yeah.

and the reason because I'm working on my doctorate and have been reading this stuff.

The reason the research says that the principal's, the instructional leader, is because the research says that the principal's, the instructional leader, because that's what they're looking at, they're not

Hmm.

at other things, and we know how important the cultural leader of the school is and how if, if you put all this emphasis on instruction and you only measure.

The results of the instruction and you're missing out on the things we said before about what the real purpose of education is, then you're gonna not ever be able to see there are more important things than the actual instruction and about what people become.

And so you don't have to be a master teacher.

To be a principal, uh, you have to be great at inspiring people.

You have to be great at creating a worthwhile experience for school.

You have to be great at making people feel like this is a worthwhile profession, that they have the skills and the capacity to accomplish a great thing like molding a child into.

A good human being as an adult.

Mm-hmm.

those are not simple things and they take a lot of effort and a lot of skill.

And it is not just about instruction, even though that's the the lie that we've been told for years, that if we just teach the the academic's right, then we're gonna be fine.

And even in the best schools academically, not everything is fine.

Because we're all humans

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

there are challenges and, and we mess things up and all that.

So there's, there's so much more to it than just teaching academics.

One last thing I'll say is, uh, you know, some systems like to,

um, pretend that they're a, a business and.

Um, wanna use sort of business language or ideas to run the school, and I don't necessarily know or think that that's, that that's bad.

The interesting irony that I see is, um, you know, if we're gonna learn from other industries to enhance our leadership, uh, wouldn't it be interesting if we hired school leaders like venture capitalists fund?

Founders.

And what I mean by that, um, it's pretty clear that if you're a first time founder, it's really difficult to get funding for your business idea from venture capitals, capitalists.

And, um, the reason that is, is because they want to know that you actually screwed up a business and failed big time before they trust you with their money.

What's going on there?

Right, because they know that through failure and going through the ringer, you have learned such important leadership life and business lessons.

They can now trust you with a sizable amount of money that they might invest in your company.

So isn't that interesting, right?

Like what if we only hired principals?

Who failed massively at something, at a do school, different dream that maybe didn't get like a hundred percent of the way there, but they learned some lessons and now they can do even better for kids.

So, um, yeah, I think that's an interesting thread to pull on at some point.

Yeah, that, that should be a, uh, an an additional premise that we.

That we put in, like, you don't get to, you don't get the top job until you failed at, uh, a previous job.

Which, which begs the question, how do you get experience when, uh, you have to have experience to get that experience?

Yeah,

and that I think is a really powerful, um, idea to, to be thinking about also.

a hundred percent.

that is not always, not always easy to.

To understand and, and figure out either.

Yeah.

All right, so couple pictures from this one.

Uh, here is, uh, an image

Bam.

that, uh, I drew is, uh, in the past, the.

The principal standing on the cart saying, go, go, go to the person in front of him.

And then the new premise is the principal standing behind, pushing, saying, is this what you need?

And, and then I, I have another image, uh, which I will just describe, which is there is, uh, imagine a circle has management and another circle that has instructional leadership.

Uh, and another circle that has instruc, that has instructional leadership.

Uh, and all those circles that has, uh, leadership in it.

And

leadership is more than just about the, the academics more than just the classroom.

so there's that,

Great.

Yeah.

Thanks for sharing it.

I am not gonna do my image 'cause I essentially drew that, which I already have.

So this

Yeah.

know is gonna be fiery also, which is.

Uh, poor student behavior causes discipline issues.

That is the premise, and we reject that and we say adult emotional dysregulation causes behavior issues.

have you gotta say about this one?

You're right.

Oh,

I, I accept, I accept your new premise.

What, what I'd love to, what I'd love to hear is how you learned it, you know what I mean?

Um, and, and, uh, yeah, I'll leave it at that.

I have a story of how I learned it, which I'll share, but how, how did you learn that lesson?

So, uh, a couple things.

Um, there's, there's a lot to unpack here, but the place I'm gonna start is the

Yeah, you recommended that to me.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Uh, great book.

And one of the things that it says in here, uh, that.

Lemme just read a couple of the chapters because it's so powerful and so against what we, what we currently believe.

Yeah.

Chap chapter titles, or are you reading the full chapter?

Like, I should go grab a coffee and sit in my, uh, reading chair.

no.

Just chapter titles, so, the first one is Deny trauma.

Yeah.

Trauma Doesn't Exist.

Lord Almighty.

Oh.

second one is, all problems are interpersonal Relationship problems.

Yeah.

have a problem, it is a interpersonal relationship problem.

Uh, don't, don't make us accept responsibility for who we are and how we behave.

Yeah.

And then I'll just read the thi third one, which is reject other people's tasks.

And,

like reject the promise.

yeah.

So one of the, the main things here uh, the way that I learned this is my oldest daughter was born with Down syndrome.

Hmm.

And it changed how I saw raising kids and teaching kids, because we went from, I have three brothers and three sisters, lots of competition.

Who's got the best kids?

Who's got the smartest kids?

My kids did this at this age, got this AP score, a SAT score, whatever.

Lots of that kind of stuff happening.

As soon as my daughter was born, all of those things just disappeared.

And, and instead of us having these high expectations, which we all think are really important, we decided to have no expectations and we didn't expect anything.

We just loved our kids and wanted them to be their very best version of themselves.

And then we helped them do that.

And now, nearly 20 years later, seeing how our kids have flourished and really become.

Their best selves without any of the expectations has been really amazing.

But

Hmm.

does this relate to problems are the problems of the adults?

The, the problem arises when adults have expectations of kids and think that kids should act or behave in a certain way, and then they go after the kids and are.

Bothered by what the kids are doing and are taking out their aggressions.

And that is what is actually causing the behavior problems.

It's not that the kids, yes, kids are gonna do stupid things, so we're adults by the way.

but when you, when the problem is in how you, uh, prepare for that in advance, if you think that kids have to walk in a straight line and always be silent all the time, and then as soon as someone gets outta line, then you.

your mind about 'em.

All that does is escalate the situation for everybody, and it doesn't have to be that way.

So, uh, one of those things from the courage to be disliked is the power of no expectations, which is not explicitly stated, but that's how I interpret it

Hmm.

us.

And, and that is a really powerful thing.

And when I stopped expecting something from kids, they actually did better than.

I would have expected them to, originally performed better in all facets than had high expectations for 'em,

Hmm.

just a fascinating thing to experience, uh, which you really have to suspend that, that expectation for that to happen.

And when I stopped expecting kids to be perfect, then their behavior got a lot better.

And it's really amazing how that works.

Yeah, you, you recommended that book to me ages ago.

Uh, and the big idea that I always memorized was, um, the idea of whose task is it?

It.

Right.

And I think, you know, uh, school leaders, teachers, um, this is how I learned the lesson is, is the tasks that my student had.

I often, uh, made it my task and then I would be frustrated about it.

Right.

So, uh, example would be teach in sixth grade, right?

Uh, they have lockers for the first time.

At beginning of the year, you know, you're teaching 'em how to do a combo lock, right?

Um, these, that's before like retina scanning and fingerprint, like thumb, thumb, fingerprint.

Uh, we should, that'd be a good business idea.

But, uh, you know, in, in kids it took a long time to learn it.

So when a student was like, Mr. Power, can you help me with my lock?

And it was the middle or the end of the year, you know, uh.

I would say yes, but I'd have a big attitude about that.

Right.

And sometimes that happens here at home, right?

My, my, my wife might make a request and it's up to me if I wanna honor it or not.

Uh, but if I choose to honor it, I shouldn't have an attitude about it.

Right.

And that's that key point, having an attitude about it.

So I was listening to a podcast, uh, at the time about parenting.

Now I don't have, um, children, but I thought that I might be able to apply some of the lessons learned about parenting, potentially apply them to the school setting.

And I was right.

And the big theme that I learned from the, the episode was that, um.

A couple things.

One, it's really entertaining for a, a young person to see an adult lose their mind because they're out of, they're out of, they're out of control, right?

And, uh, now you wanna talk about bozo is in the classroom.

When you lose your, your, your, you know, when you're dysregulated and you're losing your mind as, as a teacher, you look like a freaking goofball.

And it's hilarious to all types from kindergarten, I'm sure.

To for sure to high school.

Right.

So that's entertaining and um, maybe I'd call it

miss experience Danny.

so.

Did we just solve education's problems?

Let's just find the most dysregulated adults and put 'em in classrooms.

Nobody would wanna miss that.

What's gonna happen today?

It's WWE raw for, uh, you know, for schools.

Um, that's funny that you said that, but you know, at times I would, I would, uh, be upset and kids found that funny, which only makes you more upset, right?

So, um, that was one big aha.

And then the second was, um.

Uh, not acceptance, sort of like their, their problem was not my problem necessarily.

And so stop, like owning it.

Stop trying to be the, the savior, the hero in that situation.

That took a lot of pressure off.

And then the third thing was, um, sort of having a Jedi Middle way approach to.

Like a negative comment, you know, that a student might make to get that reaction.

That's interesting.

Mr. Bower, you suck.

You're a terrible teacher.

And I would say you're probably right.

What?

Wait, I just called you a big jerk, right?

You're a terrible teacher.

Yeah, you're probably right.

And that was that.

And literally when I started sort of, um.

Agreeing or having this middle road, you know, that could be probably true.

Probably so.

You're probably right.

That kind of stuff.

Oh no.

Right.

All of a sudden the kids stopped making those insults.

It was because they didn't get the response they wanted.

Um, so last thing I'll say.

There, there was a student, uh, um.

And she was having trouble with her locker.

It's the end of the year.

Mr. Bauer, ah, help me and old Mr. Bauer would run out of the class, help her out, be upset.

'cause he has a class full of kids.

He should be instructing who's watching the kids and why doesn't this girl know how to do her lock at this time?

And um, I remember when she said that to me and I was like, oh no.

What are you gonna do about it?

Right.

And I put it, I put it back on her and she goes, um hmm.

Would it be okay if I go and just slowly try to figure out my lock and would you please not gimme a tardy if I'm late coming to class?

That was her response.

I said, go for it right now.

This was talking to the class clown.

Somebody who was legitimately funny, even difficult for a teacher not to laugh at her jokes and her mannerisms.

And usually when she came to class late, she'd make a big show, right?

And everybody would laugh and you know, you'd have to get the back class back on track.

This time she comes to class late.

Got her locker open, had all her materials, gives me a thumbs up, and quietly walks to her seat as if she's been possessed by, I guess an angel, you know, in this case.

Uh, because she does, she does it perfectly.

Right.

Exactly how you want your students to come into class late.

And I was like, oh my God, this stuff works.

Right?

Yeah.

And the realization for me in that moment, it's me how I. Respond to these situations in the classroom, literally changes the environment.

And the second I learned that Jethro, that was the last day I wrote up a student with a referral.

How about that?

Yep.

Kids didn't change.

I changed.

Yeah.

totally.

it's so fascinating that, that you bring up the referral piece because we.

reduced office discipline referrals in all of my schools.

Not because the kids change, but because we asked the teachers to change.

All right.

and, and once, once we started that kind of approach, then the, the referrals just went down dramatically.

Because, because when, the only reason you ever write a referral is because you want someone else to deal with your problem.

Hmm.

Hmm.

there's no reason to write it other than you want somebody else to take care of it.

Yeah.

and when you ask like, Hey, uh, like, I'm never going as the principal, I'm never going to have the same feeling about the situation that you do, and it's not going to be as effective for me to deal with it as it is for you.

And one of the things that we also tried was saying.

W if you're gonna write a referral or send the kid outta your office or outta your classroom to the office, we are gonna come down and take your class so that you can talk with the kid.

Because that's really the issue is you don't have time to deal with it.

Hmm.

and so we did that a couple times and then teachers never asked for it again because they just found the time to

To talk to the kid.

that's what really needed to happen.

Um.

There's, there's one other aspect of this also from the courage to be disliked that I think is really important and, and that is the damage that praise causes.

And it, it's in line with this because, um, well, let me set it up here this way.

Let's say for example, that, uh, you're, you're in.

You're in your, your school and, and you're doing something and a kid comes and helps you do something and you're like, oh, you're such a good helper.

Thank you for helping me do this.

That's a totally normal kind of thing that we, that we hear all the time.

Right.

let's say instead that the, that the principal's working on something and a teacher comes and helps him do that, and the principal says, you're such a good helper.

Or let's say a husband is doing something in the garage and his wife comes out and he says, you're such a good helper.

Both of those situations would be totally demeaning and disrespectful to the teacher and to the, to the wife.

Hmm.

And we would call that misogynistic if the husband's doing that and saying, you're

Mm-hmm.

because anytime that you make a, you pray someone, you create a vertical relationship that says.

I am above you and I know more and I'm better than you.

And the difference, the, the better way to do that is to express gratitude.

Instead of saying, you're such a good helper, say, you so much for helping with this.

I really needed your help and I didn't even have to ask you.

And.

So I appreciate how you helped me.

Hmm.

does is that creates a horizontal relationship and it makes the person that you're giving that gratitude to, instead of praise, feel like they are your equal and able to participate with you.

Hmm.

that is a powerful way to deal with students.

Also in that.

you are giving praise, you are forcing them to be below you.

When you are giving them gratitude, you are elevating them to your same level, doing that, they then don't see you as the bad guy or someone on the other side.

They see you as appropriate and respectful equal.

That's exactly what that class clown girl did in your story is she.

Saw you as an equal recognized that you were giving her an opportunity and respected you

Because she was elevated up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because you gave her the opportunity to solve her own problem, instead of saying, either I'll solve it for you, or you're now in trouble because you're

You're late.

on

Yeah.

There are lots of different ways that could have gone, but you made her an equal and not an equal in like there's still a hierarchy.

You're still the teacher.

Mm-hmm.

you made her an equal in respect and value, not an equal, in some superfluous, non meaningful way.

That doesn't actually matter.

Yeah.

You demonstrated that high, high regard, right?

For, for her humanity.

Um, I'm glad you took the time to explain that 'cause saying there's a problem with praise, just.

On its own.

Sounds crazy, right?

I think people would have a hard time with that.

But when you talked about, um, praise versus gratitude, vertical, horizontal relationships, that makes a lot of sense.

Yeah.

Uh, there's a lot of good stuff in that book.

It's a good book.

Yeah.

Yep.

so here's the picture that I drove or drew to drive that point home, which is the old premise is the principals on top, the teachers down below, and then the students are below the teacher.

And in the new premise, uh, we have horizontal instead of vertical relationships.

Mm.

even though there is still a, a hierarchy of position, there is a horizontal, uh, level playing field as far as respect and humanity and value goes.

Right on.

My picture's just focused on what you can control, right?

Can't change others.

You can't change your.

So that's, that's where it's at.

Last thing I'll say, 'cause this has to do with, um, discipline being at the feet of, of the adult.

But this is just a, a general leadership, um, idea.

It's a quote that I got from, uh, Jocko, from Extreme Ownership.

There are no bad teams, only bad leaders.

Holy

I

smokes, in.

I, I really like that.

I mean, we could riff on this for the next 40 minutes and we won't, but maybe we'll end with this idea, which is imagine you couldn't change your staff, right?

Get Jim Collins outta your head.

Stop thinking about buses and the seats on the bus and where people are sitting, and if they're on the right bus.

Instead, start thinking, I can't change my staff at all.

And we can still be an incredible school, a legendary campus.

So if you accepted that as just a do it as a thought experiment, how would you have to show up differently in terms of, uh, potentially supporting and providing feedback and whatever you need to do as a ruckus maker and as a leader.

But if you couldn't change your staff and you still would win however you wanted, define winning.

Right.

What changes?

'cause there's no bad teams, right?

Only bad leaders.

Imagine that.

And that's somebody who was, uh, in the military, I think a Navy Seal, don't, don't quote me on that.

But the stakes were extremely high and he was saying, oh my team, it, this isn't a better, you know, objectively there might be guys who are, uh, fitter, smarter, you know, whatever, more resilient.

But he said it's really.

All on me.

So that's the last thought I wanna share.

Yeah.

I, I really like that because it is, it is very true and you cannot actually change your staff, by the way, uh, despite what you may think.

You can't.

So, uh, your, your picture was perfect.

You cannot change anybody else.

You can try.

You can think you can, but.

The reality is that you cannot.

And

Hmm.

that's really powerful.

And um, I do want to give a shout out to Eric Shialla, uh, in Transformative Principal episode 2 51,

All right, Eric.

Oops.

where he did not change his staff and completely transformed his school with no attrition and using the same people and can create a completely different model for a school.

It is possible, but it is almost unheard of because almost always we think we need to.

Get the, get the old guard out and bring new people in.

And that's what has to happen.

So, uh, it doesn't have to be that way.

Uh, and you can only change yourself.

Danny, this was awesome, as usual.

Thank you so much for, for doing this.

Uh.

Uh, go check out the next episode of this on, uh, better Leaders, better Schools podcast.

And then the next one after that, we'll be back here on Transformative Principal and you can see a link to all of them in the show notes, uh, for this show at Transformative Principal dot org.

Thanks so much for being here, Danny.

Thank you for the opportunity Jethro.