Transformative Principal

Welcome to Transformative Principal, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading.

I'm your host, Jethro Jones.

You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones.

Okay.

all right, so here we are.

Reject the premise, part eight, uh, here on tra.

Transformative Principal.

The odd numbers are on the any show, better leaders, better schools.

So today, uh, we're gonna jump right in.

Um, it's funny that this is, uh, what we're talking about today because we were just talking about it before we started, chatting here is leadership development is a luxury and all dollars must go to the kids.

And that's a premise that we reject.

And uh, and your tagline for Better Leaders, better Schools is I think something like wins when a leader gets better or something.

What is that?

It's the gist, right?

It's right actually right over, right over my shoulder there.

So, uh, when you get better, everybody wins

you get better, everyone wins.

And that's one of the things that you've said for a long time that I

Very long term.

Thank you.

So what else do you have to say

Well, thanks for asking.

Um, first it's, you know, it's good to see you again.

We're recording on the script.

So you've made a move.

I haven't been able to, uh, ask you about that.

And I like how it says Dan, Danny, I don't know if this shows up for the, uh, viewer right.

But it says Danny in parentheses, you just in case I forgot.

That you were me and I was you, how unbelievably helpful, uh, that label is.

Um, but lead leadership development, you know, is, is to me, is not a luxury.

And that has been something, that I've been saying forever, right?

When you get better, everybody wins.

Um, I was inspired by that phrase, I just remixed it.

But I was at an, an event called the Global Leadership Summit.

And, the facilitator of that event said, from the stage, right, when a leader gets better, everybody wins.

So it's the same gist.

You know, I got, I got that idea from there, but that's been the life's work for the last decade.

And honestly, when I heard that phrase for the first time, Jethro, it really like deep into my soul, you know, because.

I was getting so much value and fired up and taking notes, right?

All these legendary speakers, I mean, all sorts of people from amazing organizations all around the world talking about how they do what they do, even like, you know, people that were in charge of, um, let's say hospitality at the Four Seasons, which has legendary hospitality.

Like there's some sort of, it would be hard to think about like how schools might do this, but, um.

They, they have some sort of dollar amount where like literally a busboy, right?

Can, oh, you already know the amount.

What is it?

Two three

Anybody at Ritz Carlton can spend

eh, without any question to make the experience better for the guests.

Right.

So isn't that amazing?

And I mean, I guess the way it is related to schools is just like sort of setting the boundaries, you know?

And maybe it's not a dollar amount, maybe it has to do a time or some kind of resource.

But the point is, is like, we're here to help.

We're here, we're here to serve.

also that's sort of that, um, Japanese philosophy.

I don't know the name of it, but like the people closest to the problem are the best.

Position to solve it.

Right.

And so if you're there and you see, I I, I don't know the story I was told, and this was a decade ago, but basically like there was something wrong with the tv.

So busboy went out, got a new tv, put it up, and you know, the guest was super happy, right?

So, um, very interesting there.

that I think is just amazing.

there was a

I'm ready.

needed, wanted something from Hawaii, so the.

Clerk or whoever at whoever knew about it, bought a ticket to Hawaii, bought the thing, and came back like on the quickest flight possible.

So the guests could have that, I don't know, we'll say pineapple, fresh pineapple from Hawaii in the morning when they

rock.

Let's do lava rock.

Oh my gosh.

A lava rock from Hawaii.

So they, they literally bought a plane ticket, flew to Hawaii, turned around and came back just to, to make things better for that guest.

Uh, another story I heard uh, lost their engagement ring or their wedding ring.

And so the

On purpose or on accident.

a guest did.

And so they went and got, uh.

Metal detectors and went over the beach to find the ring and then made it there for them, spent all night doing it and put it, uh, on their room service in the morning or something like that.

And

Yeah.

Like you just, like, you go stay there and then they like go above and beyond to serve you.

Uh, that is, that is pretty amazing.

And even if it's not that, like let's say that wanted eggnog and it wasn't eggnog season, so they just.

to make you eggnog.

I mean

Yeah.

10 bucks maybe.

But that, that's huge.

And like that makes you feel real special whenever something like that happens.

And that's really what it, what it comes down to is people see that they are special and they do matter.

And, and that's the And you know, went to this, what was the conference you went to where you first heard about this

Leadership Summit?

Leadership Summit.

And was that an education conference?

No.

Right.

No.

is, this is the other part, like

Yeah.

conferences are great and you and I speak at them and, and we coach school leaders specifically, and that's all well and good, but you also have to And when I was a principal, I did everything I could to go to.

Conferences that were not education focused so that I could learn other things and make those connections outside of education, that that makes a big difference too.

It was an amazing event.

I mean, so it wasn't, it wasn't, um, it wasn't education focused.

It was actually put on by our church.

Right?

And so part of, uh.

The way that that organization, um, envisioned the event was like, pastors could learn a lot from industry leaders and vice versa.

Right.

You could say the same thing and drop in principles too.

Right?

Because I'd argue actually that,

Being a teacher and then a principal actually positioned me to, um, be able to thrive in business.

You know, because, you know, especially as a teacher, let's say 150 kids, right?

Five classes or whatever, you know, okay, 200 if you're four 40, right?

I'm hearing about class sizes, um, these days.

But the point is like you're selling an idea and it's usually like not a very cool idea to kids every.

Day, every day you're selling a new idea.

Let's learn about adverbs.

Right.

You know, adjectives or whatever.

You gotta get kids excited about that.

'cause I was a English and reading language arts, you know, sort of teacher.

Um, and they, and I had to convince 'em that I was super cool.

And get 'em bought in.

Right.

But there's so many lessons there.

Like it you, you did it not by brute force, although some people might try that.

I did it because I built relationships with the kids.

I knew what they're interested in and I brought that in the classroom.

Right.

But how does this all relate to leadership developments not luxury.

Um.

Everybody, you know, needs and deserves some sort of coach or coaching community, right?

I I, in my work, when I talk about like my automatic school framework or just, you know, generally and how I support school leaders, I say, you're the lead domino.

You know, Todd Whitaker says, right, principal sneezes the whole building catches a cold.

I say, you're the lead domino.

You know, so the impact you wanna make, it starts with you.

Like, you can't, you can't, uh, you can't expect change.

It's, being bolder these days, I guess as I'm getting older.

It's really stupid.

It's really stupid, and you're an idiot if you think like you can change a culture without changing yourself.

just say that, right?

And I, I'm listening to a book called Coming Alive, you know, um, Phil Stutz and, and, uh, Barry Michaels.

Uh, they wrote a book called The Tools.

There was a Netflix documentary that people might have seen called Stutz.

Um.

But it's about, it's about taking control, taking ownership, you know what I mean?

And having these tools to get you through stuff.

But even in the context of marriage relationships, uh, one of the stories that, that the authors are talking about is like, you know, don't, don't try to change your partner or change your, you know, uh, kids.

You change, you know, and when, when you change, and you can be seen as taking it seriously, whether it's uh, following through on your word or not being as reactive or whatever it is, you know, family notices, the school notices, and it makes you credible, right?

'cause there nothing worse than being that leader or working for a leader who's saying all this really inspiring stuff, and they're full of.

Fill in the blank, Jethro.

No, you can't do it.

So, but you get what I'm saying, right?

You're the lead domino.

Last thing I wanna say on this is, um.

Uh, OUL Gawande Checklist Manifesto.

We read that year one in the Mastermind back in 2016.

he wrote an article in The New Yorker, which is probably over a decade old at this point.

I don't even remember the article's name.

but it had to do with like him as a surgeon.

Right.

Uh, getting a coach.

Hiring a coach.

And, um, the big points that resonated with me is like, okay, Giordano had a coach, LeBron as a coach, Beyonce, voice, dancing type of coach, like all these people at the top of their game in different areas have people to help them get better.

So why not school leaders like this is not a luxury.

Like figure it out.

Make make it work for you.

You deserve it.

And again, over my shoulder, right?

When you get better, everybody wins.

So that's all I have to see on the topic.

You wanna see the picture?

Look at how cool that is.

Whoa.

Lead

love it.

boom, boom.

You're knocking down the other stuff.

Pow.

Um, so, uh, what I would add to that is a lot of times people think that you need a coach because you suck.

And that is, uh, a terrible misnomer that we have in education, and it, it really annoys me that that is the, the idea because it's not true.

You were gonna say something?

Well, it's all, that's all BS too because the coaches, they like people that are struggling.

Right.

And have areas of improvement when they're assigned a coach, it's not actually like how many of them actually improve.

Right.

And then the district's like, you did it and we're so proud of you.

No, they, they hired the coach to.

also had a coach and you still suck and now you're fired.

Right.

I'll, I'll tell you this, I won't tell you the campus, but there was, um, I really like two years ago.

Oh, so fun work with a principal and it two aps.

The board basically was telling the principal, you're a dynamic leader.

We love your leadership.

You've been here forever.

And, and we're worried about the future, right?

We love your aps, they get stuff done, but we don't know that they have the same type of like vision or, you know, culture, like the other stuff that a leader needs.

And there were things that one of the aps was doing that was just putting off people.

And it was because he was a little shy and socially awkward at times, right?

And so like maybe a board member might come to school and he'd basically like.

Not talk to them, but not because he didn't, he just didn't know what to say.

Right.

But they, they took that in a certain kind of way, you know, and it was gonna be very bad for his ap, like the writing was sort of on the wall.

Now we had already like.

Uh, I had already been hired, so we had, you know, we were doing work together.

Part of it was building their capacity, but that AP actually did figure it out, right?

And kudos to the principal who said like, let's get Danny to work with the team, da, da, da.

Because.

Um, he actually improved and he took the feedback and, and got better.

But that's usually not the case.

'cause it's usually like somebody that's brought in within the district.

They're not even really a coach.

Right.

They're, they're a supervisor.

They're there to evaluate and evaluate you out, so,

exactly.

And, and so that's the, the, the

Yeah,

we've having a coach.

But the reality is, is that having a a sign of humility and maturity.

And it says, that I know everything.

I believe that I have a lot to learn and I'm mature enough to go find someone to help me do that.

Yeah.

and

Last thing.

Uh oh, sorry.

go ahead.

fired up this morning.

Um.

I would love to hear about your Mastermind experience.

My mastermind experience.

Everybody.

There's not, nobody's on an improvement plan.

what I find it's, it's really interesting because it's like sort of a players, you know, the top 1%, so many have become principal of the year, um, national, state, regional sort of, uh, awards.

You know, blue ribbons, all the stuff that like you might care about sort of, uh, external sort of outcomes that you can earn, but it doesn't matter.

It's the internal work and the process that matters.

But that's who ends up joining.

And that's sort of like an interesting irony because, they're already performing really highly.

So

Yes.

getting coached?

Because they know, um, they haven't met their potential.

Right.

Uh, so they're already performing at a very high level, but they want to just get like, if I got 1% better in 2026, let's say, would that impact my business, my relationships, you know, my family, so on and so forth.

So yeah.

Is that what you're seeing also in your mastermind?

Absolutely is the, the people who are in there are on the pathway to or already are.

Winning the accolades that say you are a good principal.

And so doesn't make sense for them to, uh, to go get a coach if coaching, getting a coach means that you suck because that's not what they're doing.

Yeah.

want their game to be even higher.

And, and that's the that we're looking for.

Where ha going, getting a coach is a sign of humility and maturity.

leadership development or thinking that your district is just going to do enough, uh, just by having you in a leadership position, I think is arrogance and a waste of resources.

Like you definitely should be doing things to improve yourself on a regular basis.

And, um, and I like, I personally have had a coach for most of my adult life.

Sometimes in a very formal, I I pay money other times in a, I need someone to go talk to, to help me be better.

But to not improve yourself is just a dereliction of duty and, and a terrible thing that too many principles Just go about their business and don't do what they need to.

That's the thing, you know, I call it sleepwalking, right?

Like they're sleepwalking through their leadership in life and just on automatic and, uh, They don't realize like how they can grow and the value they can add to their community.

I think we do have to address, 'cause one of, one of the things some of the audience might have going through their head is, oh.

I'm like a B player, b plus, or you know, I'm not the A player yet.

know when people join the Mastermind, they go through a reel.

real bout with the imposter syndrome, like, what do I have to contribute?

I always say, well, you know, you're the only one that's had your lived experiences and see life the world, you know, your worldview, your way.

And even if somebody's like brand new as a. Like, um, teacher that just became an ap or we have this awesome dynamic leader who's actually, uh, still teacher, avid coordinator, that kind of thing.

um, did a program with me called Play Your Game.

And like something lit up in her head and she's like, you know what, maybe I will go into administration.

So I'm super pumped for her.

Um.

But they, you know, they feel like, oh, what do I have to add?

And sometimes even these high performing leaders need to slow down and just have an outside perspective.

Like, have you thought about like this, you know, from a teacher perspective or as a novice just saying, why, why do you do it that way?

And it slows the leader down to be like.

Huh?

Let me, know that I have a great answer for that.

Let me think about it.

You know what I mean?

And, and they can reconsider, um, some of that stuff too.

So anyways, if somebody is watching, listening to this and saying, oh, I'm not there yet, I'm not ready.

Yes, you are right.

If you're asking that question, you're ready.

So just, just do it.

that, that into our next one, which is

alert, segueway alert.

segue.

that like, is that like a kazoo with the note card?

No, I was just going woo woo.

And I just happened to put it,

woo woo.

Okay.

I missed.

of my face.

So sorry for all you people listening on audio.

You don't get the visual aspect of this.

so,

You should watch as well.

uh, the next one is Leadership is lonely.

And the, the segue from the previous statement, you feel imposter syndrome because you are isolated as a leader and there are not people you can talk to in your building sometimes in your school because of all the politics or your district, because of all the politics that are there.

And you can't be vulner.

to stab you in.

because that happens a ton.

So the, the premise is that leadership is lonely and we reject that.

And we say that loneliness in leadership is a choice and, and that is the difference is that you choose to stay lonely and stay isolated.

But it doesn't have to be that way because there are a lot of ways for you to get support.

A coach is just one of those things.

A mastermind is another.

finding other people to talk to about what you're going through and being vulnerable with them is, is also something that you can do.

So it's not like we're saying the only way to not be loneliest to join the Mastermind though.

please.

That's a great way to do it and and we welcome it.

But there's lots of ways for you to not be stuck in that, and it doesn't have to be that way.

Go out to events, you know, uh, back in the day there were Twitter chats, but you know, there's a lot of Voxer groups that are still going on.

Um.

There's online communities, Facebook, we have the Ruckus Maker Club.

So, you know, definitely, certainly all, all, all sorts of ways that you, you can connect and you should connect because the job is too hard to be done in isolation.

Right?

And one of the first interviews I did ages ago as well was with Greg Sat, enemies of Excellence is a book he wrote, lovely book.

There's 10 enemies.

He describes, uh, in that, in number ones.

Isolation, right?

The number one enemy of excellence is being isolated.

so you gotta get out there, you gotta get connected, get uncomfortable.

Uh, it's okay if you're weird or socially awkward.

There's like probably like way more people that are that like that than, than that.

And so just, you know, just lean in.

We need people, you know, we need community.

And especially in a, in a climate where, uh.

It can be very divided, you know, and, uh, sort of li like a lot of blaming based on like and stuff like that.

So yeah, get, get connected.

I don't have as much to say I don't think on this one.

I mean, just get connected.

That's really it.

So here's my picture.

The traditional leader is just a single point, and the ruckus maker leader that rejects the premise has a whole bunch of people around him or her to help make that happen.

Yes.

I do not know where those cards are, so I looked for 'em, but I couldn't find that one.

All right, well maybe next time you'll, you'll have it.

Who knows?

Um, all right, then.

it's, it's my biggest flaw, right?

Like organization and uh, like that kind of stuff.

So I need somebody in in locally, right?

In person that could be like, here's your three cards, your big dummy.

Yeah.

So what's, what's so funny about that as a little side note here, I, I note alert.

Here we go.

I also struggle with organization, and so I am very anal about putting systems in place to make sure that I stay.

On top of things.

And for me, without those systems in place, it just is not gonna happen.

So my system, I'm just gonna tell you 'cause for those who haven't heard, we, we wrote all these ideas out on note cards and we wrote four cards for each one with something on each note card.

I took this stack and I have it in my desk drawer right here to my left.

I have in the very back of the drawer, I have one pile.

That is what we've done already.

And the other pile is what we haven't done yet.

And I do not touch these except for when we're doing the podcast because I know if I take 'em anywhere else, if like I do something else with them, I'm gonna put 'em somewhere else.

I'm gonna lose them.

this, this spot right here is where they have And that system, I time we do this recording.

gonna be in a good spot and ready to go because my cards are right there, and I just pulled the next we're ready to do the next three for that week.

Yeah.

Did you, you, you wrote yours on the way to Japan, is that right?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and I wrote mine at a, at a coffee shop in, uh, Marrakesh, Morocco.

Um.

The interesting thing is like we were working off the same document, right?

But somehow I think I, there was some differences in interpretation

was,

I don't, I don't think I've lost cards.

I think I've just interpreted differently, which is totally fine.

Um, and my system sucks because I had, here's my system.

I don't have a drawer.

a standing desk, no drawers, like I need a drawer.

And I had a stack.

And then I just threw them in the closet.

And then I, and then I, I, I actually, I had 'em stacked like this so I can easily go through them.

Right?

and then I found, you know, I find what we're talking about today.

Um, and then I took the ones we've talked about and I put them in another pile.

And then the, still they're missing.

Jethro.

They're still missing.

sorry about that.

I will tell you this though, I am rearranging my office, you know, which is awesome.

I upgraded some tech stuff 'cause I haven't got a new computer in five years.

So, you know, how's the picture?

You know, this is pretty good.

Yeah.

um, the, the, the best part of reorganizing I, I literally moved everything out, not.

All the furniture.

The desk didn't come out, but all the books, everything out of the closet and I'm not bringing it all back in.

Right.

So I'm gonna make some decisions there to get rid of some stuff.

So that's a system that's gonna be supportive.

Unfortunately it has nothing to do with the cards and I will never find those last cards.

I do have the next one though.

So what's up for that Inno Innovation?

Yeah.

The is, uh, innovation.

Uh oh, interesting.

Uh, innovation is expensive.

It has to involve technology.

It's risky, it's scary.

these bad things.

And really the reality is innovation is a mindset and it doesn't cost a thing.

And

Yeah.

Yeah.

uh, I'm talking about this one because I'm gonna give a little, uh, alert dissertation update.

hold on.

Yeah, that didn't work out so well.

That definitely did not come over the recording, so that's gonna be an awkward the something happened and it it out.

So anyway, maybe the upload will get it, but here's the thing.

Uh.

your job

I, I did a, for my dissertation.

It's a dissertation in practice and I, my focus is how principals can use AI for innovation instead of just efficiency, because talking about using AI to do things faster than they did before, and nobody's asking the should we still be doing those things?

Yeah.

Let's turn out, let's turn out more garbage.

Faster.

Which is exactly what's happening.

And that's how are using it and that's how students are using it.

And the, the real challenge that innovation really has to be a mindset.

You have to be constantly looking for ways to improve things, and that's what the key is.

How do you do this?

This problem, how do you solve it in a better way?

That's what innovation is really all about, and that is more, way more a mindset than anything else.

So I did this full day training in Wyoming a couple weeks ago, about a month ago now, and it was a great experience because what I do is I set, I set people up for frustration intentionally because people think that AI
can do anything And that's what's so fascinating about it, is that if you tell it to do X, Y, or Z, then it'll do X, y, or Z. if you are not an expert in that thing already, and then you won't see where it falls short.

And so the, the way that I approach this with, uh, the principles I was working with is you have to define the problem that you're trying to solve First.

So whatever that problem is, you need to define it clearly and then can figure out how to make it, you know, figure out a real solution to it.

And what inevitably happens, every single time I've done this, and especially this time, is that people try to get AI to solve their problem and then it doesn't work because it's really easy to get AI to do anything, but it's really hard to get it to do something specific.

And so you, you can't just do a one shot on, on anything.

Uh, you, if you want something specific, you're gonna have to massage it and work on it in, in some way.

And so that's what I do with the principles is I say, figure out your problem first and then figure out how you can use AI to help you solve that.

And then what inevitably happens is that people say, oh, maybe I don't actually need to solve this problem.

I need to solve this other problem over here.

And.

And they realize, they, they look at the cause differently because the solution isn't working out as well as they thought.

And, and so they have to go through these iterations to figure out how to make things work better.

And that is an incredibly powerful and freeing thing for people to experience and, and it is awesome.

So innovation really is a mindset first.

it's about how you actually approach that problem.

And if you approach it in a way that you are willing to kick off, kick out the things that may not make sense, um, then that could be powerful.

And this is where I think that my, my picture illustrates it better.

innovation needs to be applied to the problem and looking at it not to the solution.

Innovation is not in our solutions.

It's in how we're looking at the problem.

That's where the innovation comes in.

I love that that reframe and, um, focusing on the problem is so powerful, you know, and having that right is essential, you know, for any good output.

And you definitely, I like how you talked about the one shot too.

'cause sometimes I'm like with AI and I realize, man, I've been doing this for a while.

You know, we, we, we put in some real, real work and I'm happy with the direction it's going.

Um, but it's certainly like, I didn't just type in a prompt and then got an answer in five seconds and now I'm done.

You know, and I could like, I guess retire or something, right?

Like there's, there's actually a lot of effort, you know?

Uh.

Involved with it.

Uh, but if you put in that effort, you can, you can create some interesting things.

So, uh, here's a quote from Steve.

Jobs innovation distinguishes between a leader and a follower.

So that's a little nice gut punch for the audience.

You're welcome.

Uh, Jethro told me to say that.

And, uh, a few examples of innovation costing nothing in, um, by the way.

I love that you also talked about how it's a mindset, right?

'cause something I'm, I'm obsessed with, uh, these days is the idea of, Um, intention and then action.

That's really all that matters.

You know what I mean?

Like the thing you wanna do.

Okay.

Now how are you gonna do it?

Like, let's get there as quickly as possible instead of just like about there's a difference between people who write books like us and people who talk about writing books, right?

Like, you either write the book or you don't.

So, all right, few, few examples of innovation costs nothing.

We did a thing at Brooks College Prep called Seminar Day.

And it was just a, a, a re a reimagining of the schedule.

Uh, the faculty signed off to actually work more hours, nine out of 10 days, school days, so that every Wednesday could be a special half day where there were no classes.

And we just did some really interesting, uh, stuff where it could be anything from Zumba.

To hair braiding, to robotics and musical performances and everything in between.

Right.

Um, and the way we got there, right?

Cost, nothing, nothing.

It was mindset.

It was buy-in, you know, from, uh, the group.

We revamped the computer lab, you know, and got all new machines and furniture.

But wait, Danny, that stuff costs money.

It does, but we didn't pay for it.

We built very strong, uh, relationships.

And this was in Chicago where there was some like really great organizations that wanted to support schools.

They bankrolled it and got to slap their name on it and have very positive press.

But in reality.

It cost us some time in building relationships.

It really actually didn't cost us anything.

Um, in the book, the Beautiful Constraint, there's can if thinking we can do this really hard thing, innovative thing if these things are also true, right?

And so it has you think through stuff that, um, you wanna see come alive and yeah, just think about it from, you know, 5, 6, 7, uh, different levels.

I could go on, but you get it right?

Like, so innovation really could be.

Free, maybe a little bit of sweat equity and relationship building, uh, or reimagining what's possible on campus but doesn't necessarily cost money.

And here's my image.

Um.

There's boundaries, there's constraints, right?

All around the card.

Uh, so four sort of boundaries, constraints, and in the middle it says, innovation lives here, right?

So it's not just like innovation for innovation's sake or one of the deadliest sins of school leadership, which is let's just keep meeting and talking about it.

Guys, no intention.

Action.

Let's do some stuff.

You know I'm, you could waste so much time.

We could do.

You know, a 10 hour podcast about how bad meetings can suck, in school systems.

And also that's back to the leadership development piece if you're waiting for your district.

Hey, I'm looking forward to this week, the principal meeting, where I'm gonna watch a hundred slides that are dense with text, lots of bullet points, hard to read, and the presenter's just gonna read me the slides.

Yep.

'cause

yeah.

way to present.

I called that the parade of presenters meeting, and, and that's what it It was just a parade of presenters and they just came in, presented, and then the left.

And it was like, what's the point of this that like, there's not discussion, there's not development, there's not anything.

It's just we need to get this information into your brain.

That definitely could

yeah.

but then

it high five district system.

Now they know, so we can hold 'em account accountable.

Um, I think like if they did, uh, you know, WWE style and that presented the parade, presenters had a entrance song, they have at least liven things up, so.

it would still be fluff.

That doesn't mean anything.

Right.

So there wouldn't be that It would just be a But like, uh, like what you said about the, the boundary and the constraints, because that does create, uh, it
forces creativity when there are boundaries and you have to have those things, which again, is why it's a mindset and, and you have to with that, with that view.

All right, so there we Uh, there's our three for this week, the premises that we reject, and, uh, we look forward to seeing you on our next edition, which will be on Better Leaders, better Schools.

And, uh, if you're listening to this in the Reject the Premise podcast, it'll be in the next episode.

So thanks Danny, for being here.

All

you.

Jethro.

Great to see you.