Transformative Principal

Jethro Jones: Welcome to
transformative principle where you

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just a manager of a to-do list.

I'm your host Jethro Jones.

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Welcome to transformative principle.

This is episode 337, and I am
excited to be chatting with Amber

Demboski, who is a principal of
two schools like me right now.

And that is exciting, actually,
not right now anymore, because.

As of this month, I am now a free
agent out there doing my thing.

So I'm excited about that.

And Amber, welcome to
transformative principle.

Thanks so much.

I'm happy to be here, man.

I am happy to talk with you as someone
who is juggling multiple schools

and serving principals as well.

I know how challenging that can
be and that's what you are doing.

So why don't you start by telling us
a little bit about yourself, your work

in schools and your work supporting.

Sure.

Amber Dembowski: Well, you know,
I've worked in many different

facets of education and I think
that's one thing that has really

built me up throughout the years.

So years ago, I started as a teacher,
a paraprofessional or a teacher aid.

Then I was a substitute teacher
and then a classroom teacher and I

evolved into an instructional coach.

I worked as a district trainer.

I was also an instructor at a university.

And then I moved into principalship and
did some consultants work on the side.

I continue to do that.

And then I was asked to be the
principal of a second building.

So like you mentioned, I'm the
principal of two elementary buildings.

The second building, I was asked to
be principal there because it was the

lowest performing school in the district.

The teachers were
feeling pretty beat down.

And the districts gave me the charge
to kind of go in and build that

culture up and increase that teaching
and learning within that building.

So throughout all of these
experiences, I have gained a lot

of understanding about how school.

And more importantly, teachers' work.

And I have met so many people who have
influenced me through all of these

experiences that have really impacted
who I am today and what I believe in.

Jethro Jones: It's very interesting
that they would send you to a

low-performing school as a second school,
not to put your whole focus there.

What are the challenges with
having a poorly performing school?

Be your second school and not
the only one you focus on.

You know,

Amber Dembowski: the biggest challenge
has been that I was with one school

for three years prior to that.

And so they were really in a
different place than my second school.

When I was brought on, I bring the
staff together for professional

learning for our staff meetings,
for our PLCs and collaborations.

What remains difficult is both
buildings are just in a different

place because of my time with.

Jethro Jones: Yeah.

So with your first school, you've
been there for three years,

establish some routines, policies,
procedures, culture, all that stuff.

And then you got to jump
into the second one.

And we all know from experience
that if you are leading a school and

you know, you do certain things to
get to a certain point and then you

don't have to redo all those things.

All the time, because
everybody understands.

That's how things work.

That's part of building a school culture.

And so now you got to bring a
second school on and then you do

professional development together.

That sounds like a really challenging,
challenging thing to put together.

So let's talk about some of the
mistakes that instructional meetings.

And not meters leaders, excuse me.

Some of the common mistakes that
instructional leaders make, what

are the pitfalls that you see in
instructional leaders doing okay, for

Amber Dembowski: sure.

And actually these are all
mistakes that I've made myself.

I recently published an article
for AFCD about the four common

mistakes and instructional leaders
make and how to avoid them.

And.

These were all mistakes that I made made,
and I continue to make mistakes every day.

So there's nothing wrong with
going out and making mistakes.

I don't want anyone to walk away
thinking that, um, because of that, how's

that saying go, if you're not making
mistakes, that means you're not trying.

Right.

And some of the mistakes that I'm going to
focus on, I think we'll settle really well

with the instructional leaders out there.

I think they'll agree with it.

And then some of them,
I think will challenge.

Some of their thinking.

The first one that I had mentioned in
the article is that we're focusing too

much on student outcomes and I think most
people would agree with that statement.

Once they hear me talk a
little bit more about it.

I believe that if a heavy load of your
time, when it comes to school improvement

is looking at student performance, then
you're focusing on the wrong thing.

I am a strong believer
that data's information.

I'm a total data guru,
so don't get me wrong.

It becomes a guide for us, but if we
spend most of our time doing only that,

then I think we're missing the boat.

Most of our time, it needs to be
spent on asking ourselves why.

So why are we seeing the
results we're seeing?

And then the real dirty work begins by
adjusting what's happening in the class.

I think most instructional leaders
would agree with me on that.

Whether that's what's actually
happening, that's not always the case.

Sometimes most of our time for PLCs
is spent doing the data digs, but

then what do we need to do next?

Um, most of our time should be spent
on building that teacher capacity and

ensuring that the instructional practices
happening in the classroom are in response

to the information that the data provides.

And so that's where that first mistake
comes in, I think would settle or

settle with most people's thinking.

Jethro Jones: Yeah.

You know, we've really changed how we
focus in education on different things.

And focusing on outcomes has
seemed to just ratchet up even

more and more as time goes on.

And I think that that's a really good
point that we need to step back and figure

out why things are happening, how they
are and not make everything about that.

Outcome and recognizing that kids
are multifaceted, that they have

lives outside of school and the.

What happens in school is not
everything to them as it shouldn't

be everything to us either.

What's the second mistake that
people often make instructional

leaders specifically.

Amber Dembowski: Well, and this
one in general can sometimes

challenge people's thinking.

Um, the second mistake is just
staying out of the teacher's way.

People will say, I'm
sure you've heard this.

You know, that teacher's
doing a great job.

I just let her do her

Jethro Jones: thing.

Amber Dembowski: Right.

Me too.

Me too.

So essentially we work
with a variety of teachers.

So in my consultant work, I talk about
the four types of teachers and I've named

them based on their traits and performance
levels, um, just for simplicity sake.

So there's the notables, the classics
that interim amateurs and the site liners.

And I'll go into that a little bit more.

You're in a minute, but the
teachers can work throughout

these stages throughout the day.

So just because there are notable
when they're teaching math

doesn't mean they're notable.

When they're teaching reading, it
really depends on their experience

and their expertise, their motivation,
and even their self-reflection with

whatever the task is that they're,
you know, And although I don't

believe there's a perfect formula.

Um, so working with teachers, um, I
do think that understanding some of

the fundamentals of human behavior
does allow us to build the capacity

and their capacity for success.

Um, so if we just start by talking
about the notables and the notables,

those are the peak performers.

Those are the ones that were saying,
Hey, they're doing a great job,

was to stay out of the way they
generally represent about 20% of our.

And if we think about it, their capacity
is endless because they continue growing.

And in all honesty, we're going
to get the most bang for our

buck with this group of teachers.

On a scale from one to 10, they give
us a 10 on each day, but if they're

not fully engaged and developed through
the feedback that we provide them, then

they're 10 turns into a seven tomorrow.

So often what I see
happen is leaders with.

Leave this group of teachers alone,
because they always think this

group of employees has it figured
out which they do, but they always

remain 50% of developed because
they're always wanting to learn.

So leaving them alone is not how
to build their capacity and we

need to really unpack the feedback
for them, just like we would.

Any other teacher.

Yeah,

Jethro Jones: let me just jump in
there because I think that this is

an important piece that I've talked
about many times on this podcast.

The idea of it's not your job as the
principal to put a lid on anybody.

And, and I've said that numerous
times as I'm bringing it up, because

I think the notables, when they're
doing their thing, then yes, you

let them go and do their thing.

But that doesn't mean that you let them
go and don't ever give them feedback

or talk with them or, or help them get.

But you continue that process
of challenging and pushing them.

So quick story about that.

I have a librarian or had a librarian
who was a phenomenal, phenomenal.

And she was a great teacher of adults
and of kids did wonderful things

and I would constantly push her
to do better than she was doing at

whatever it was that she was doing.

Not in a like, you know, let me
go find something that you're

doing wrong because you're.

Really amazing.

I'm just trying to nitpick, you know,
but like, okay, you've, you've reached

this plateau, what's next for you
and how are you going to do that?

And so at the recent technology
conference in our state this year, she

presented three or four times in a row
in one day and was just like, it was

super stressful for her, but she was so
grateful that I had pushed her to apply

to present two years ago that she was
now comfortable taking on that challenge.

Was sharing what she was doing
with others so that she could share

her notable illness out with other
teachers and librarians as well.

And, and that's where I was just going to

Amber Dembowski: say a lot of
times, that's what it's about

with the notables is encouraging
them to increase their influence.

That's really what it's about because
when you're teaching others, you

continue to grow as a person and you're
learning more as you're teaching.

Jethro Jones: Yup.

Totally true.

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All right, so let's talk about the class.

Amber Dembowski: Yeah.

Sure.

So actually this is where most
of the teachers will fall.

So about 40% of teachers would be
considered classics and it's not

a bad place to be at all because
these teachers, they come to work

and they give their best efforts.

And on average, they're
about 60% developed.

So they do what they know,
but building capacity for this

group is extremely important.

So making time to provide feedback to
them absolutely needs to be a priority.

Uh, they're generally
motivated to grow and change.

They sometimes function as
if there's just one, right.

One right.

Way of doing things.

It's not necessarily in a stubborn
way, but they just want to make sure

it's perfect or that it's just right.

But this represents about
40% of your teaching staff

Jethro Jones: generally.

Yeah.

I've experienced with this group of
teachers where they're doing it that

way, because it's worked for them.

And there's no sense in changing or
growing because it's been working and they

are, like you said, great teachers who
are working hard, doing the best they can.

And you know, they, in my
experience need just a little

bit of a push, just a little.

Encouragement support.

You know, I, I came into a, uh, in one of
my schools that I was at this last year,

they hadn't had a leader who had really
been focused on them for many years.

And so when I came in, the thing that I
heard the most often from these classic

teachers, and this is really how it
was, they were like, oh, well, we just

haven't had supervision for so many years.

We've just been doing our own thing.

And so it's really nice to have somebody.

Here's the vision.

This is what we're doing.

And what's amazing is that everybody
loves to be led by someone and to

be pushed and developed and grown.

We actually enjoy that as human beings
and often in education, we make it

seem like teachers hate that and they
don't hate that, but they got a, they

got another person cares about them as
human beings and that they are willing

to understand where they're at first.

And so not knowing anything
about the homeschool situation.

When I came in, I said, tell me what I
need to understand to help me learn it.

And then they would say these
things and I'd say, okay, I don't

understand why you're doing that.

And then they'd say after me asking a
bunch, they'd be like, actually, we don't

understand why we're doing DD or either.

It's just what we've always done.

I said, okay.

So are you willing to like, change that?

And they're like, well, yeah, if there's
something better and I said, well,

here's five things that are better.

And they'd say, oh yeah, well, let's
do B because that one sounds like

it'd be the easiest to implement.

Great.

Let's do it.

So yeah.

Amber Dembowski: It's all about the trust.

Isn't it?

Jethro Jones: Yeah, totally.

So let's talk about the in-term amateurs.

Oh

Amber Dembowski: yes.

The interim amateurs.

So this could potentially
represent about 20% of.

This group is really underperforming
based off of what you know of the

teacher, but what makes it interim
is it's more than likely temporary.

It may be because they're new.

And if that's the case, you want to
provide a lot of feedback to build

their capacity, or maybe like something
personal is going on in their life.

That's making work difficult.

And in that situation, you'll just want
to provide support on a personal level.

Jethro Jones: Yeah,
these interim amateurs.

I love that phrase because
they're not there the whole time.

And, uh, I remember working with a teacher
who was, who was in that situation.

And I was like, as soon as you get
through the hump, you're going to be.

So just push through and
it's going to be all right.

You're going to get some bad evaluations
because a lot of things you're doing

are not great, but it's okay because
eventually you're going to get there.

And this teacher, like once she finally
hit our stride and we understood

it, she was like, oh, now I get it.

So, so fun to see that growth.

Amber Dembowski: Well, and then finally,
there's the side liners and here

is where the mistake is often made.

So that the side liners usually represent
again about 20% or less of your teachers.

And unfortunately they have a low level
of positive impact on student learning.

Yeah, we often, this is the mistake
it's been most of our time with.

Uh, the side liners are those who,
you know, you've been providing the

training and the feedback, and yet
they still consistently underperform.

They don't appear engaged and they're
maybe quote, unquote, lacking the talent

that it takes to be, uh, you know, a
productive member of your teacher team.

So once I've determined that someone's
assigned liner, Don't get me wrong.

I start every one, the classic in
my mind when I'm providing feedback.

But over time, if they've proven
to me that they're a sideliner,

I usually just start having
crucial conversations with them.

And so the feedback is much different
and the crucial conversations

usually are questions asking them,
you know, are you happy at work

or do you feel successful at work?

Um, it may even be asking them if
they feel there might be a better fit.

Sometimes it's even, I noticed statements.

So it's almost calling them out in a way.

I, you know, I've noticed you don't stand
at your door to greet students, even

after I've asked you to several times,
what's getting in the way, like those are

notice statements, but what's important
here is I don't let them consume my time.

'cause, I don't want
to put my energy here.

I want to place my energy on
things that I want to see more of.

And that's going to be from the teachers
who are ready to do and be better every

Jethro Jones: day.

Yeah, I think that's so important.

And sometimes the reason why
people are side liners is because.

They're just not a good
fit for your school.

And they just can't, they just can't
bring themselves to be effective there.

And that doesn't mean that they
can't be effective someplace else.

And it's really important to make that
distinction because it's not always.

Clear, you know, sometimes you think,
well, maybe it's just not the right fit

when in reality they're they just don't
have the skills to be a teacher and

you've gotta be able to discern that.

And so one, one situation
where I did do that was when.

I had a teacher who, you know, she
just could not be successful in my

system and it was too too much for her.

And, uh, it wasn't structured
the way that she needed to be

structured, to be successful.

And she was teaching in a content
area that wasn't her content area,

but she was qualified in, you know,
so there was that awkwardness.

And so, you know, I talked with
her and I said, look, I think

that you're a great human right.

And unfortunately you don't have what
it takes to be in our school, but that

doesn't mean that you're a bad teacher.

You just, aren't going to fit
into what we're trying to do.

If you go down to elementary school
where you'll be with the same kids all

day long, you'll be able to take the
time to develop those relationships

that you love developing with kids.

That will probably be a much
better situation for you.

And she was hurt.

She was offended.

She cried, it was super uncomfortable
and awkward for the rest of the year.

But I was able to confidently say when
she applied at an elementary position,

I was able to confidently say she
will be a good teacher at your school.

And sure enough, she went
there and totally flourished

and was able to do well.

And if I would have like tried to fire
her or get her out of the profession,

I would have been doing those kids a
disservice, but I was doing a service

to the kids at my school because she
wasn't going to be able to work out with.

Right.

Amber Dembowski: Right.

And regardless of where the
teachers fall within the spectrum

of employees, I, I want everyone
to be clear, like they are on your

team, you work with them every day.

So they deserve your respect,
your appreciation and your love.

There's just multiple reasons
why these labels can be helpful.

One reason is because it helps us
identify how we can support them.

And then the other is to help us
reflect on what kind of leader.

We want to be for them and
how we should prioritize our

Jethro Jones: time.

Yeah.

And this is, this is so important.

I'm so glad you brought that up
because the way that we interact

with them is absolutely vital.

And so knowing, knowing that you have a
sideliner liner and being able to say.

Here's where it's not working and
here's what a next step can be.

That is just so important.

And too often, I hear principals talking
about how we got to get this person out.

She's no good.

He's no good, whatever the case may be.

And that's not fair to that
person who is on your team

currently and is a human being.

You've got to be honest
and forthright with them.

And.

You know, and work through that.

And every single year I've had somebody
like that where it's not a good

fit for, for a variety of reasons.

They're always different for whoever
it is, but you've got to be able

to say like, this is not working
and we've got to find a different.

For sure.

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