Transformative Principal

Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading.

I'm your host, Jethro Jones.

You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones.

Okay.

Welcome to Transformative Principle.

I am your host, Jethro Jones, and excited to be here.

The Transformative Principle Podcast is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network.

We got great shows for everybody, so if you're listening and you wanna know something more about your role in education.

There's a podcast@bepodcastnetwork.com, and if you don't find one, then we need to make one.

So reach out and let's make a podcast because, uh, everybody needs to have their own individualized, personal professional development that helps them grow.

And today, I'm excited to have on the program someone who's good at helping people grow.

That is Chad Dumas.

He is, he's been on the show before.

So go back in the archives and, and check out that episode.

There's a link to it in the show notes at Transformative Principal dot org, but he is a solution tree, PLC and RTI at Work Assessment and Priority Schools associate an international consultant, presenter, and award-winning researcher.

I. Uh, he's written three books.

Let's put the C in PLC, an action guide to put the P in to put the C in PLC.

And his newest book, the Teacher Team Leader Handbook.

And this one is focused on teacher team leaders.

And so we all know that educators sometimes get thrust into these leadership positions, maybe because they're good in their classroom, maybe because they're good leaders.

But Chad delivers a wealth of knowledge on how to.

Actually help those people be successful.

So Chad, welcome to Transformative Principle.

Great to have you here.

Thank you, my friend.

It's great to see you again.

Yes, you too.

So, uh, so your book is really focused on two things, who you are and what you do.

And so I wanna talk first about that idea because so often we get involved in the, the strategies and the tactics, and we can actually solve a lot of problems.

Before we even get to any of that

Mm-hmm.

the different way we approach things, the different mindsets we have and things like that.

So tell us about the difference between who you are and what you do.

Oh yeah.

So as you said, teachers, uh, many times get thrown into, if you will, these team leader roles and, um, because they're.

good teachers or respected by staff, or maybe a combination of the two.

And dealing with adults is different than dealing with students on a variety of levels.

so thinking about who we are and what we do as two sides of the same coin, and sometimes I refer to that as being and doing.

Who you are and what you do.

And you're exactly right.

If we just skip to the doing part, which is in some, kind some ways, uh, kind of the sexy part, right?

Like that's the really attractive, like that's what we wanna get to.

Just gimme a tool, give, gimme a process.

The problem is, is if we jump to those tools or processes without really being clear about who we are, about our role, our assumptions, and our mindsets, those tools.

Can become or even, or at least be perceived as manipulative, and that's not helpful.

Yeah, now right there like that.

Piece.

So like people call it the dark side going over to leadership or administration because it seems like you are being manipulative and people may not be able to articulate that that well.

Mm-hmm.

you implement the strategies and they are not true to who you are, that's where the real challenge comes because people can tell you're not being truthful about who you really are in doing this.

Can you give a a couple of examples?

I've got a couple too, but I want to hear.

Some examples of where, where this really is obvious.

Yeah.

So I'm thinking of some, some folks I've worked with over the years who, um.

Others did not perceive them as being genuine, authentic, and what they pointed their finger to when they would interact with this person, they would always reframe what the other person said by saying, I think what I hear you saying is.

Just like that phrase.

I think what I hear you saying is there's like three eyes in that sense and all of a sudden it becomes about them and then they would, they would rephrase, but with their own take and they wouldn't really be after finding out whether or not that was actually what they thought they heard you say.

then they would go on into their own set, their own agenda, and that whole series.

Becomes perceived as manipulative, even though you, they're using the skill of paraphrasing, for example, be even using skills of pausing as part of that, but if there's not that purity of intention, then that whole series of actions becomes perceived as manipulative.

Yeah.

And, and that's a great illustration because we're told all the time that we need to do active listening and, you know, paraphrase what people are saying and make sure we seek to understand first, which that sounds like what that is.

But when it comes down to it, that's not always the case.

And so if you have a particular agenda or a particular.

Perspective, and you're not willing to actually hear what someone else says.

And you're like, you know, I think what I hear you saying is this is absolute baloney and I'm not gonna listen to anything else that you say because you're an idiot.

That's what comes outta your mouth.

Even if you're saying all the right things, the feeling and the uh, intention, that's what comes out and that makes it really difficult.

And so it, it can't just be about the strategy.

And the tactics, uh, any others that come to mind?

No others.

Not off the top of my head, but what, what you were just saying made me think about, um, coherence and I think of my own self and striving to live a, a life of coherence.

And what I mean by that is that I'm the same person when I'm with my wife as I am when I'm with my kids, as I am when I'm with.

administrators as I am with a team of teachers as I am in the grocery store, that there's this coherence in my life.

And I think that's also this idea of being and doing where there's that coherence.

And in order to be coherent, we have to be aware of who we are as people.

And so raising these assumptions and mindsets, and, and I'm not saying you have to hold these.

What you do have to do is raise what are your assumptions and mindsets in dealing with other people so that you can make sure that you're authentic and coherent.

Yeah.

Well, and and I am reminded of the advice I got my first year as an assistant principal where we had a consultant.

He was like 80 years old and had been doing this for generations, literally like.

60 years he'd been a school leader or working with school leaders.

And he said, if there's one thing I can tell you, Jethro, it's that you don't ever blame any decision on the district office.

It you either

Mm-hmm.

like crazy to make that thing not happen, or you own it and you say, this is my decision.

And if you can't believe that, then you're not cut out for this.

And if you can't believe that, you either.

Go to bat like crazy to get rid of that decision overturned, or it is 100% yours, then, then you're not gonna belong for this world.

And that was him basically saying, you know, you gotta, if you're gonna, if you're gonna make a decision, you gotta own it 100%.

And even if you think it's a terrible idea, you're still making that decision.

Otherwise you need to go against the powers that be.

And, and refuse to do it.

And so I did that, um, a few times in my, in my career, but one time in particular, I said, we are not spending every one day a week for six weeks preparing for the state test.

We're just not gonna do it.

And so we are going to do one practice day to make sure that all the technology works and it's gonna be 30 minutes.

And everybody's gonna get on.

And once they're on, then we're gonna call it good.

We're not gonna take the test and, and all that.

We're just gonna check the technology.

And, um, and the district was like, no, you have to do this.

And I said, well, I'm just not going to.

If that means that like, you're gonna fire me about this, then do that.

But we're not losing all this instructional time so that we can play this game of making sure things work for the test when if we are not confident that it's gonna work for the test, we shouldn't be doing.

That stuff, right?

Like there are bigger issues at play here.

And so, so we did that and um, and it worked out fine, but I was like, there's no way that I'm going to endorse us doing this.

And uh, my staff was like, we are nervous about this test.

But because I wasn't nervous and felt confident, they were like, okay, maybe we don't need to be nervous.

So all their teacher friends at other schools are like, oh, we're panicking.

And they were like, well, we just haven't done anything with it.

And, and so we can't, there's nothing to stress about.

And that was actually a really helpful thing, uh, for everyone to experience because we ended up not needing to stress about it at all.

And everything turned out fine.

And what, what you're, I think one of the key things I take away from that great story, Jethro, is the importance of integrity.

Yeah.

And, and not only, not only integrity, but first of all, being aware of what are your values.

Many, many times we haven't raised those values, raised those beliefs, and one of, one of the assumptions of the district office, if you will, was, Hey, if we do more test prep, kids will do better.

Yeah.

your assumption is, if we do more quality instructional environment, will do better.

Yeah.

you were clear about that.

Then acted integrity in that, in that way,

And, and that goes back to your piece about coherence.

Like I need, if I need to know what my values are.

So let's talk about values for a minute, because this is something that I harp on people a lot, is you have to be true to your values and clear about what those values are.

And, and if you're not, then it's really easy for those things to.

Uh, for you to not come across as authentic and for you to look manipulative and, and all that stuff.

So what, what advice do you give to someone who is, who's new in this role of being a teacher leader and they've just been in the classroom and now they're supposed to lead their peers?

Uh, how do you, how do you help them be true to who they are and know what their values are?

Yeah, so I start with, uh, clarity about what the responsibilities are of a teacher team leader, and I've not seen anybody articulate what the responsibilities are.

Typically, it's, Hey, go off and good luck.

No news is good news.

Let us know if,

As long as I don't hear anything bad, then you get to keep that job.

Yeah.

must be okay.

And as long as there aren't, there's no, you know, objects flying during meetings, we'll be okay.

And what I articulate is three responsibilities, and the third is the one where you might hear people talk about, but it's actually the least important of the three, the first two responsibilities that are the most important.

So the first responsibility is to make the safe space safe.

Psychological safety.

I'm not talking physical safety, I'm talking psychological safety.

So that's without psychological safety, that team's not gonna go anywhere.

And there's components of what that means to create that psychological safety.

And then the second responsibility is to build capacity.

That if, if you're not building capacity as a team leader, then as soon as you go right, somebody else isn't gonna be able to step up.

And we want to build the capacity of everybody to provide leadership.

And then the third responsibility, it's the least important of them, is about doing the work.

And there is work that needs to be done.

However, that work's not gonna be effective or efficient if we don't have psychological safety and if we don't have.

Uh, a, a, a mindset of that responsibility of building capacity.

So I think anybody who's starting on the role has to begin with that foundation.

What is your role?

Your role to ensure the effective functioning of the team.

Now, what's the purpose of the team?

Right?

Because I just said in that role, ensure the effective functioning team.

So what is the purpose of the team?

The purpose of the team is to guarantee learning.

Guarantee, like these are big words, huge words that we could spend an entire episode on.

What does it mean to guarantee learning?

Yep.

any old learning, it's GU guaranteeing learning of team identified grade level essential outcomes.

So we've got the role or ensure the functioning of the team, the purpose of the team guarantee learning.

And then the three responsibilities of make it safe.

Build capacity and do the work.

And then from there, now we can move forward into, okay, so what does that mean for me as a person and for the work, uh, that I do?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I really like that approach and especially their responsibilities because there could be a whole bunch of other things that, that your principal may have told you are your responsibilities.

And like you said, those all probably fall in the category of doing the work.

Like hold a meeting, go over this data.

Uh, do these observations, whatever those things are, those are all doing the work, and you're absolutely right that those are the, uh, the least important of, of the three.

So the psychological safety piece though,

Mm-hmm.

that one is a really big deal because it, it basically comes down to.

If, if there's not psychological safety, then again, nothing else matters.

It doesn't matter what data you talk about.

It doesn't matter what practices you implement.

Doesn't matter how you talk to people, because if they don't feel psychologically safe, they're not going to trust you and move forward.

Period.

End of story.

What else would you add there?

Yes.

And sometimes so I've been fortunate to be able to do some, uh, one and two day trainings on, uh, on these, this, this topic.

And when I raise this idea of psychological safety, I'd say nine times outta 10 people will say, oh yeah, we have psychological safety.

And then when you dig into it, what they have is nice.

I, I grew up and was born and raised and most of my career was in Nebraska.

And for about 10 years, the tourist slogan for Nebraska was Nebraska.

Nice.

And it became like this thing in the state.

We were like, yeah, we're just Nebraska.

Nice.

And what does that mean the to your face?

We're gonna smile, we're gonna nod.

And then when the meeting's over, when we're in the parking lot with our car keys in hand, that's where the real conversation happens.

That's how you know you don't have psychological safety.

Psychological safety is that when you're in the environment, and there's two things, duh.

Higg, uh, did a study with Google about eight, 10 years ago.

Huge, massive study with the Google corporation to find out what makes for an effective team.

And they looked at all kinds of factors.

For what makes, makes a team effective.

And you know, you can imagine the hypothesis going into this thinking, oh, in order to be effective you have to have high levels of expertise or a lot of experience or, uh, people who are really good at their job or good treats, right?

You could think about all the different hypotheses and what they found was there were, there was psychological safety and that, that boiled down to two things.

is the degree to which.

Folks.

Uh, social sensitivity is the short shorthand term, short social sensitivity.

That's the degree to which people read and respond appropriately to the nonverbal cues that we give.

It's all nonverbal communication.

is the first part of social sensitivity.

The second part is equity of term taking.

So equity of turn taking is pretty easy to to take care of in a meeting, right?

You can develop some protocols, use protocols, use inclusion activities, use turn and talks, use pair shares, use talking sticks, a whole variety of ways to establish equity of turn taking.

That's pretty easy.

The hard part of psychological safety according to this study is that social sensitivity.

Some of us have that.

of us don't, and so we have to develop that.

What does that mean?

First of all, we have to know what are the nonverbal moves and techniques that others are using, and then how can I, as a teacher team leader, respond appropriately to be able to influence the group, to move in a positive direction towards that goal of ensuring effective functioning of the team.

Well, and, and the amazing thing here is going back to what we said before, is that if you're not genuine in what you're saying, then it, it means nothing.

So equity and turn taking.

Does not increase, uh, psychological safety if everybody gets to say their piece and you're gonna decide on your own anyway.

Right?

Unless you say that out front and say, and, and so this is something that, that I counsel principals all the time with, is if you have made a decision already, you just need to say what that decision is.

Right.

And, and people can come and complain to you after the fact, but you need to be clear.

So, so there's a strategy that, that people often talk about where you let everybody else talk and then you have the final word as the leader.

And that's fine if you don't have a decision that's made yet.

But if you know, like, Hey, this is what we're gonna do and, and you're sure about it, then you need to get that out up front and say, here's, here's what I'm saying.

This is, this is my stance.

If we're gonna do anything different, you have to convince me of something.

Otherwise, this is now your chance to try to convince me, but lemme tell you, it's gonna be pretty hard 'cause I'm probably not gonna change my mind.

It is perfectly acceptable.

That actually does help with psychological safety.

For you to be that clear about it, what, what would you add there?

I love that.

And what I share with principals that I'm working with is coming back to, I don't remember who the author is that identified the four quadrants of decision making

Mm-hmm.

principal, but I, or for a leader.

Um, but what you just described is, is of those quadrants, maybe two and uh, the four different types, and I don't remember which quadrant any of 'em are, but like the first type of decision is I'm just gonna make it.

I don't want input.

Too bad, I've made the decision or I will make the decision.

Those are pretty rare.

An example might be, uh, a, god forbid, an intruder in the school with a gun.

Mm-hmm.

I'm not gonna call a committee together to get input on which way we're gonna go.

Mm-hmm.

I'm gonna make that decision.

Yeah.

much.

And I don't want your input.

Yep.

A second type of decision is I'm gonna make the decision, um, but I do want your input.

I may not.

Like you said, like I may not change, but I want your input in that decision.

third is I'm gonna make your the decision, but I want your recommendation.

So that might be going to a committee and it'll be recommended.

That is a, I didn't give an example for the second one, but that one is like a curriculum materials.

Typically school boards make

Mm-hmm.

those decisions, but they need a recommendation.

the school, right?

From, from the, um, a committee of some sort typically.

And then the fourth kind of decision is we're gonna make that decision together.

Mm-hmm.

And counsel principles just like you do, be it clear upfront, don't, don't change.

Right?

kind of decision is this from the get go?

And that's the kind, and this is if this is the kind of decision that we're gonna make it together.

Then you gotta be that.

And you can't midway be like, oh, I don't want, like where this decision is

Yeah.

gonna change it.

Right.

You

Yeah.

you gotta stay with it and you know, um.

seen many a decision that a principal has made, not a principal, that a team made with a principal that the principal came to me and said, you know, I don't really know if this is the right decision, but I think this will work out in, in the long

Mm-hmm.

And kind of going back to your earlier story of, you know, making a decision or, um, following through on a decision from district office, I read once that, you know.

you work to implement a decision that you disagree with, the sooner it will become clear that it was the wrong decision.

Mm-hmm.

So if there's a decision that you don't like, harder to implement it, because if you work against it, we'll never know if the reason why that decision failed was because it was the wrong decision or because we had people working against it.

Yeah.

Yep.

work, work to implement that decision.

Especially when you disagree with it,

Yeah, because when, when you disagree with it, you'll find every possible flaw along the way and.

Put those flags up saying, yep, this is wrong.

I was right, this is wrong.

I was right.

This is wrong.

And, and it may never actually get the legs it needs to actually succeed.

And yeah, I, I think that's important.

we've spent the bulk of our time talking about the, the being part and very little about the doing part.

And the reason is, is because.

It's so important to know that if you're not being genuine and you're, and you're not, you don't really believe in the things that you're talking about and stuff, then they come across that way very easily.

But I, I wonder if you might share one non-verbal, verbal and one like actual thing you can do, assuming that your being is aligned.

Mm-hmm.

what's one non-verbal and one actual verbal thing that you can do as a teacher team leader, uh, to, to move your team forward?

What would be, you know, you got a lot in there, so we're not gonna get to all of 'em.

So go buy the book, the Teacher Team leader handbook and check it out.

But we'll give you a little, a little taste here.

The first one's free, as they say.

A taste, a

Yeah.

There's, there's actually 40 actions, four zero that I go into detail with on, on those.

So the, the first one I would say that is, is, um, comes from the nonverbal communication world.

intelligence, communication, science where, so let me just preface a little bit.

Most of your listeners, I'm pretty sure are familiar with the idea that goes back to mehrabian's research that like 93% of communication is non-verbal

Mm-hmm.

there's these numbers that are pulled out of thinner, which just as an aside, a little asterisk and down on the side, that's actually misrepresentation of the data.

There is act, it actually has to do with likability, not with.

Mm-hmm.

Setting that aside, I think we can all agree that non-verbal skills are pretty darn important,

Mm-hmm.

not as much what you say as how you say it.

Yeah.

So in the field of human behaviors, of human patterns, non-verbal communication patterns, excuse me.

We will just edit that out.

Excuse me.

In the, in the world of nonverbal communication patterns, the single most impactful nonverbal pattern is the pause

out of about 50.

There's about 50 patterns, and it is the single most impactful, it has influence on respiration, on heart rate, blood pressure.

The release of endorphins and adrenaline and the blood spring blood bloodstream.

It's just really remarkable.

The pause, simply taking a breath.

Let's think about that for a second, and you can combine that with some other non-verbal moves like breaking eye contact with freezing a gesture that's literally holding your hand some way and just freezing it.

It coupled with a, a deep breath, an in breath that's, that can be heard, which then also facilitates other people taking a breath.

It can be conscious, it can be unconscious.

There's a number of ways to create that pause to create that space, just to

allow prefrontal cortex to catch up with the amygdala,

Mm-hmm.

The front thinking part of the brain as opposed to the back, so-called reptilian part of the brain.

so I, I, I like that one because it's something that is actually probably wise to do and you don't necessarily have to be aligned to do that.

Right?

So, so if you just pause like 99% of the time.

Taking a breath is the right thing to do, not the wrong thing to do.

Every once in a while you need to like make a decision faster, but most of us are not in those kind of situations, uh, ever in our life, let alone when we're leading a team meeting.

So we are probably okay to take a pause most of the time and just slow it down for a minute and let things go.

I like that.

yeah, yeah.

It's brilliant.

It's like magic, like

Mm-hmm.

it seems, well, as I said, like the science backs it up.

The single most powerful pattern that we have as human beings is the pause.

It literally affects respiration, heart rate, blood pressure,

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Very good.

Alright, so now give one that is not a non-verbal, but a, uh, a physical action or a, a thing to say or, or some other action.

Yeah.

uh, let's do this one.

So this is one that also is just like magic.

It's actually one that I kind of refer to as, as, as a trio that I call the Three Magic Moves because they really are literally like magic uh, it's called Third Point.

It come, comes from a gentleman named Michael Grinder, and he, uh, what he references is like a first point in any conversation as yourself.

The second point is other people.

A third point is a, a tangible, non-living something or other.

So in a meeting that might be an agenda.

So the importance of having a posted agenda that we can all look at as a third point.

It might be data in a meeting with.

A student who you're having challenging conversation with, it might be something that's written down on a sheet of paper, on a table in front of us that we can look at.

So the third point, it's really literally magic because it shifts our energy away from potentially having conflict between the two of us as people as effective personal relation, uh, conflict.

Now we can have conflict about this thing.

Now an agenda clearly wouldn't be necessarily conflict, but, but an agenda gives us a third point to be able to like, create some synergy and some, uh, energy in the same direction where we're all looking at that third point.

in terms of data or any, any time there's conflict.

Get out a third point at some point, get out some chart paper.

Hey, if you're feeling the tension's starting to rise, hey, let's capture some of these thoughts on this whiteboard or this chart paper so we can make sure that we have what we're saying.

Capture, does this capture our thinking?

Right?

And, and now the conflict is here on that third point, which is so powerful because now we can engage in cognitive conflict, which is necessary.

If we wanna maximize our work, we gotta get ourselves pushing each other.

heard the saying that if there's three of us in the room and we all agree, two of us are unnecessary,

Absolutely.

Yeah.

so let's access that expertise.

And third Point is a really powerful move to be able to get everybody's voices in the room, uh, a safe manner.

Yeah.

Well, and, and so I'll add one that I just love and that I use in all of my coaching sessions,

Uhhuh.

this one is like the same kind of magic.

And before I say it, I'll say, here's why I use it.

Number one, it reaffirms to me what I did that brought value to the, to the conversation, and it reaffirms to the person who's answering it, what value they derived from the conversation.

So I typically use this in coaching situations, but it works in any kind of other meeting because if you had a meeting, you want there to be some value added to it.

Uh

Right, that it was meaningful and worthwhile.

So this is the question.

What was most valuable to you today?

And it's from the, uh, Michael Bunge Stiers, uh, the Coaching Habit book.

And I asked that at the end of, of every regular meeting that I have, any a coaching meeting, just a catch up with somebody that is so powerful because it reminds somebody, why was I here and why do I want to remember this in a positive way?

And, and that one, like finish a team, your next team meeting with that question and, and you'll get some great responses.

And what I, what I love is when people say things that have nothing to do with anything we were talking about,

Oh

it's like, oh, okay, so the value you got from this was not that like I did X, Y, or Z, or we helped these kids or these teachers, or whatever the value was.

This other thing that I didn't even see coming.

That's when it's really cool because that just gives you another layer of connection and relation to that person, which is, which is fantastic.

So

Yeah.

the, the last question that I ask, uh, in the podcast is a little different.

What is one thing that a principal can do or a teacher team leader can do this week to be a Transformative leader like you?

Chad.

Hmm.

Yeah, there's, there's so many things, but I think given the, the tenor of this conversation where we've gone is to maybe take a few minutes.

And sit down in your favorite, most comfortable chair and think about your intentions as a person and as a leader.

And maybe jot some thoughts down, like, what, what are your intentions, uh, which is different than a hope, right?

A hope is kind cast into the universe.

Mm-hmm.

is cast into the universe, and then.

We make effort to make it happen.

Mm-hmm.

And so I think that might be, um, in line with our conversation today to think about what are, what are your intentions a human and as a leader and how you can then align your actions to better meet those intentions.

Yeah, and you can do that in five to 10 minutes just sitting down, put your phone away, put your book away, like be distraction free and just think, what are my intentions?

Um, so I.

in a drive

Yeah, I,

to the grocery store

yep,

right?

Or, yeah.

Yep.

So I actually did this chat.

I'm glad you brought this up because I actually did this, uh, a few months ago and I was like, what do I really want?

Like when I meet with somebody, what's, what's my real purpose here?

Because, you know, as a consultant I'm like selling, um, I'm trying to get people on my podcast.

Like there's all these things where I'm trying to get things from people and it's so easy for things to be transactional.

I. And so, uh, I did this and I was like, you know what?

I want to think long-term and I want to do long-term things.

And so one of the intentions that came out is that when I meet with somebody, I want it to be a, the first time I meet with them, I want the clock to start ticking.

That we are going to be in this relationship for at least the next 10 years.

And, and I've started saying that on calls with people.

Especially people I first meet and I say, look, I don't know where this is gonna go, but I anticipate that we're going to be connected for the next 10 years and, and I have a note taking system that I use where I put people's names in and the dates that we met and that kind of stuff.

And so I know when we started and so I can go look, look up the person that I met with and say, oh, you know what we met on this day.

Uh, and this was our first.

Our first meeting, and so like you and I, our first meeting was uh, June 27th, 2021.

That is nearly five years ago.

And,

Uh

or sorry, four years ago, nearly four years ago.

We are almost halfway through our expected 10 year relationship.

Um, so that's pretty cool.

I hope it goes longer.

I hope so too.

I mean.

Is it longer enough,

Yeah, that's, that's really what it's getting to, right?

At least 10 years.

So like if, if we don't, if we don't do business together or we don't do whatever or something, quote unquote big doesn't happen, that's okay because we still have time, you know?

And so it doesn't end.

And, and by having that as my intention, then it takes a lot of pressure off and I don't feel like I have to.

Get something out of a, out of a thing.

And for me personally, that has been Transformative in a big way because I, I don't feel the pressure anymore, and I don't feel like it has to be a certain thing, and it just takes off so much stress, which is a powerful, powerful thing.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I love that.

I also love the long-term nature of it.

Yeah.

Like, like this is, this is valuing others as more than, like you said, transactional.

It's, it's as human beings

Mm-hmm.

looking, looking to the long run.

Yeah, so, so with this perspective, when you emailed me and said, Hey, can I come on the podcast again?

I was like, you know what?

He's someone that I want to be in that 10 year relationship with,

Hmm.

and.

If I have an opportunity to serve him by having him come on the podcast, then that's great.

He can serve me by being a guest on the podcast, and I know we're gonna have a good conversation.

And it's not like I, I need something from you in order for that to work.

But because I have this long-term thing of, you know, I wanna, I want to be there for my friends.

I want to support them.

I want to help spread the word about the good things that they're doing.

And this has been a great conversation today.

It's worthwhile to invest in that time, even though sometimes like you don't want to do it, you know, and you're like, ah, you know, it's late in the day.

I'd rather go lay out in the hammock 'cause it's beautiful outside, but let's, let's do this thing and continue developing and deepening this relationship.

It is worth it to take that long-term view.

And so.

I would invite people to, to take the time to think about your intentions like Chad suggested, and, and see how you can align your actions to it.

That's, that's a really powerful thing to do this week.

So thank you, Chad.

Um, there's a link to his book, a link to his website, everything in the show notes at Transformative principle.org.

So go check it out.

And Chad, thanks again for being part of Transformative Principal Today.

Oh my pleasure.

Thank you so very much.